ABSTRACTS  OF  TESTIMONY 


PROM  FIFTH  AND  SIXTH  HEARINGS 


GEO.  DRAPER,  ROYAL  E.  ROBBINS  AND  W.  P.  ANDERSON, 

REMONSTRATING  AGAINST 

More  Frequent  Payments  of  Wages, 

BEFORE  THE 

COMMITTEE  ON 'LABOR 

OF  THE 


MASSACHUSETTS  LEGISLATURE, 


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3  ■a  t-  2. 

’HtVXo. 


Digitized  by  the  Internet  Archive 
in  2017  with  funding  from 

University  of  Illinois  Urbana-Champaign  Alternates 


https://archive.org/details/abstractsoftestiOOdrap 


13*// 


TESTIMONY  OE  GEORGE  DRAPER, 


9 


Mr.  Chairman :  It  has  been  my  privilege  to  appear  "before  this 
committee,  year  after  year,  in  regard  to  the  matter  of  more  frequent 
pay'ments.  I  stand  now  where  I  stood  to  begin  with,  to  protest  in 
the  interest  of  the  laboring  men  against  such  forms  of  legislation  as 
this.  I  am  told  that  it  is  only  corporations  that  you  are  legislating 
for.  There  are  two  sides  to  this  question.  It  is  not  the  corpora¬ 
tions  alone,  but  yTou  are  selecting  out  such  men  as  do,  and  want  to, 
work  for  corporations,  and  branding  them  as  not  able  to  make  their 
own  contracts,  as  to  how  often  they  shall  receive  their  pay.  I  say 
thst  this  is  a  species  of  guardianship  in  which  the  State  is  under¬ 
taking  to  put  these  men  into,  a  condition  where  they  cannot  make 
their  own  contracts ;  the  Legislature  fixing  the  conditions  on  which 
they  shall  be  allowed  to  labor.  I  have  been  an  operative  for  so 
many  years  that  I  think  I  know  something  of  the  effect  it  may  have. 
I  read  not  long  ago  a  written  contract — I  happened  to  come  across 
it — which  I  made  with  Edward  Harris  in  1842.  In  that  contract  I 
agreed  to  work  for  him  a  year  at  $1.75  a  day  ;  to  receive  one-half  of 
my  pay  as  I  wanted  it  along,  and  the  balance  at  the  end  of  the  year. 
Now  you  propose  to  say  to  any  operative  in  the  State  of  Massa¬ 
chusetts  that  he  is  not  at  liberty  to  make  such  contracts  with  any 
corporation.  It  is  taking  away  their  liberty.  It  strikes  exactly  at 
the  root  of  their  liberty.  This  order  speaks  of  employers  and  em¬ 
ployes.  The  only  definition  in  the  dictionary  which  I  have  been 
able  to  find  is  that  employes  are  those  that  are  employed.  Under 
thrt  system  I  am  an  employ'e,  the  gentleman  at  my  left  is  an  em¬ 
ploye  ;  and  Mr.  Dalton,  who  testified  before  you,  is  just  as  much  an 
employm  of  the  Merrimack  Manufacturing  Company'  as  the  poorest- 
paid  hand  who  works  there.  But  you  are  saying  to  him,  and  you 
are  saying  to  me  that  I  cannot  make  an  arrangement  with  that  cor¬ 
poration,  that  I  am  not  to  receive  my  pay  once  a  month  if  I  choose. 
If  you  look  into  this  matter  you  will  see  that  if  y  ou  pass  this  law, 
you  are  passing  it  so  that  these  people  are  to  be  included,  in  their 
inability'  to  make  contracts  with  a  corporation.  Then  we  are  told 
in  regard  to  this  matter  that  this  affects  corporations,  and  not  in¬ 
dividuals.  Certainty,  y'ou  say',  the  employe  must  be  paid.  But 
suppose  the  employe  don’t  want  to  be  paid  ;  supposing  the  employee 
says,  “I  don’t  want  to  be  paid.”  Supposing  he  goes  along  a  week  or 
two  after  that  and  you  are  going  to  make  up  a  case — I  don’t  suppose 
you  are  playing  legislate ;  I  suppose  you  expect  these  laws  to  be 


4 


carried  out  and  enforced.  Suppose  I  refuse  to  take  my  pay,  and 
you  pass  this  law  affecting  the  Hopedale  Machine  Company,  of 
which  I  am  the  agent.  Suppose  I  say  I  don’t  want  my  pay,  and 
the}"  break  the  law  if  the}^  don’t  pay  me ;  what  is  going  to  be  done? 
Now,  in  regard  to  this  matter  of  employes,  I  want  to  tell  }’ou  that 
out  of  these  men  have  come  some  of  the  best  business  men  you  have 
got  in  Massachusetts.  Let  me  illustrate  this.  There  is  a  member 
of  this  committee  whose  chair  is  vacant  today,  with  whose  father 
and  mother  some  twent}*  years  ago,  when  Gen.  Banks  was  in  com¬ 
mand  at  Fort  McHenry,  in  Baltimore,  I  had  a  letter  of  introduction 
to.  We  called  upon  Gen.  Banks  there.  His  father  and  mother  and 
Gen.  Banks  were  old  acquaintances.  There  were  six  of  us  present 
who  had  been  operatives  in  cotton  mills,  not  only  the  men  but  the 
women.  Gen.  Banks  you  know,  he  has  been  Speaker  of  the  House 
of  Representatives ;  he  has  been  Governor  of  the  State,  and  he  is 
U.  S.  Marshal  here  now ;  he  is  a  man  that  grew  up  from  an  opera¬ 
tive  in  the  old  time,  when  they  worked  14  hours  a  day,  and  got  their 
pa}T  once  in  three  months.  The  father  of  the  member  of  the  com¬ 
mittee  to  whom  I  have  alluded,  is  one  of  the  largest  business  men  in 
the  State  of  Maine ;  he  has  built,  a  ver}T  extensive  manufacturing 
establishment  in  Massachusetts,  and  another  in  Maine,  and  is  re¬ 
puted  to  be  worth  $2,000,000.  The  most  I  can  say  is,  that  I  have 
been  a  hard-working  man,  and  I  have  had  a  good  deal  to  do  with  in¬ 
dustrial  operations,  and  have  something  to  do  with  them  at  present. 
The  Legislature  undertook  to  fix  it  that  nobody  should  charge  more 
than  six  per  cent,  per  annum  for  interest ;  they  were  not  at  liberty  to 
make  any  contract  in  regard  to  it.  The  Legislature  found  out  the 
wisdom  of  allowing  people  to  make  contracts  in  writing  for  differ¬ 
ent  rates.  Now,  if  the  Legislature  thinks  it  is  best  to  let  the  people 
say  that  if  there  is  no  contract  made,  the  payment  shall  be  weekly, 
that  will  be  in  consonance  with  regard  to  interest,  and  so  far  I  see 
no  objection  to  it ;  but,  in  heaven’s  name,  why  should  we  single  out 
a  corporation  and  those  who  work  for  it?  If  }"ou  are  going  to  benefit 
people,  wh}’  do  you  want  to  benefit  one-third  part  of  the  wage  work¬ 
ers  only?  Why  do  }Tou  except  associations,  partnerships  and  in¬ 
dividuals,  and  so  assume  to  say,  We  will  make  such  contracts  as  we 
please  with  our  help,  but  we  are  going  to  compel  you  and  }’our  oper¬ 
atives  to  make  just  such  a  contract,  and  no  other,  as  we  dictate  to 
you.  Now,  in  regard  to  the  effects  of  this  legislation  upon  corpora¬ 
tions,  I  want  to  tell  you  a  slight  circumstance  ;  it  is  not  given  from 
fancy  or  anything  of  the  kind,  for  3’ou  can  find  the  records  in  the 
other  end  of  the  State  House.  When  I  was  here  a  year  or  two  ago, 
I  said  that  this  legislation  about  corporations  was  doing  the  State 
what  I  thought  was  a  great  injury.  Now,  to  illustrate :  I,  with 
some  associates,  owned  a  cotton  mill  in  the  State  of  Connecticut. 
We  put  in  $125,000.  There  was  a  man  by  the  name  of  Briggs  and 


5 


his  son  ;  they  had  a  cotton  mill  up  in  Haydenville,  where  they  had 
put  in  $125,000.  We  made  up  our  minds  that  it  was  important  to 
get  this  property  together,  as  we  thought  we  could  do  much  better 
with  it.  Mr.  Briggs  had  grown  up  from  the  operative  class  that  I 
was  speaking  of ;  had  worked  as  long  hours  as  anybody  ever  worked 
in  a  cotton  mill,  and  as  faithfully.  He  has  been  manager  of  millions 
of  dollars’  worth  of  property  and  very  successful,  and  he  is  a  man 
that  it  would  be  very  desirable  to  have  as  a  business  man  in  the 
State  of  Massachusetts.  After  talking  the  matter  over,  as  he  was 
to  manage  the  mill,  the  question  was  whether  we  should  move  the 
machinery  we  had  in  Connecticut  into  Massachusetts,  or  whether 
we  shou  d  move  from  Massachusetts,  in  order  to  combine.  Said 
he:  “I  have  undertaken  to  run  that  mill  there  in  Massachusetts, 
and  I  don’t  like  the  regulations  there  in  regard  to  corporations,  and 
I  would  prefer  to  remove  this  property  to  Connecticut.”  The  result 
of  it  has  been  that  we  have  built  new  tenements  in  Connecticut  for 
the  help,  and  built  a  new  mill,  and  moved  the  machinery  there, 
taking  $125,000  worth  of  property  from  Massachusetts.  The  mill 
in  Massachusetts  has  been  sold  for  a  mere  trilie,  and  the  tenements 
are  empty.  We  have  since  added  $50,000  more  to  the  Connecticut 
mill,  so  that  you  have  $300,000  of  capital  there  in  an  industrial 
establishment  which  might  have  been  in  Massachusetts,  if  Massa¬ 
chusetts  had  been  a  more  attractive  place.  Now,  those  aye  facts 
that  you  would  do  well  to  consider.  There  has  been  something  said 
here  about  the  matter  of  wages,  as  though  the  foreign  help,  which 
have  come  in  here,  were  putting  wages  where  nobod}7  could  get 
a  living.  Now,  1  had  a  report  of  a  speech  made  before  the 
New  England  Cotton  Manufacturers  by  Mr.  Burke  of  Lowell,  in 
which  he  had  gone  to  the  records  and  got  the  amount  paid  to 
operatives  in  1838,  and  the  amount  paid  then,  in  1876.  (1  have  the 

books  I  kept,  showing  what  was  paid  to  the  operatives  at  that 
time.)  The  records  showed  that  they  were  paying  in  Lowell,  in 
1876,  77  per  cent,  more  per  hour  to  the  foreign  as  well  as  native 
operatives,  than  we  were  paying  the  best  American  girls — and  we 
scarcely  had  any  other — in  1838. 

I  am  speaking  of  facts  of  my  own  knowledge.  There  have  been 
questions  asked  here  about  the  fraud  there  is  in  keeping  back  wages. 
Was  there  an}7  fraud  committed  upon  me  by  Edward  Harris 
when  I  made  that  contract  and  signed  it  with  him,  to  receive  my  pay 
at  the  end  of  the  year?  Is  there  any  gentleman  here  who  will  say 
there  was  any  fraud  about  it?  If  not,  where  is  the  fraud  in  any  case 
where  a  man  deliberately  says:  I  will  work  a  month  and  receive 
my  pay  once  a  month. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  Will  you  please  state  who  the  person  was 
who  claimed  there  was  any  fraud? 

A.  I  say  that  some  member  of  the  committee  used  that  word  and 
used  it  in  my  hearing. 


6 


Mr.  Russell.  I  don’t  think  the  report  will  show  it. 

Mr.  Draper.  I  don’t  know  about  the  report,  but  I  am  talking 
about  what  I  heard  and  know. 

Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.  Defrauding  the  laborer  of  his  interest. 

Mr.  O’Sullivan.  I  don’t  think  it  is  a  question  of  fraud  any- 
way. 

Mr.  Draper.  Well,  I  don’t;  that  is  what  I  was  undertaking  to 
make  out. 

Mr.  O’Sullivan.  We  can  give  it  another  name  that  will  be  just 
as  bad. 

Mr.  Draper  It  is  an  intelligent  contract  made  by  intelligent  men 
and  properly  carried  out ;  and  the  operative  has  the  right  to  say  that 
he  Will  wait  a  year  for  his  wages,  if  he  don’t  defraud  anybody  by 
doing  so. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  How  much  contract  is  there  to  it  if  a 
person  has  got  a  family  to  support  and  has  got  no  money  and  has 
got  no  means  of  getting  a  living,  and  has  got  to  go  to  work,  and  he 
comes  to  you  and  asks  you  for  work  ;  you  say  there  is  work,  under 
my  rule  ;  and  he  has  got  to  wait  six  weeks  under  your  rules  before  he 
can  get  a  single  cent ;  he  has  got  to  do  it  or  else  starve  his  family  ; 
how  much  contract  is  there  to  that? 

A.  Let  me  reply  to  you  by  asking  you  whether  the  Legislature 
is  to  say  that  I  must  hire  that  man  whether  I  want  him  or  not.  I 
say  most  emphatically  that  a  man  is  under  no  obligation  to  hire  men 
that  he  don’t  want,  and  pa}7  them  what  they  don’t  earn. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  I  say  what  is  the  contract  on  the  part  of 
the  poor  man  who  has  got  to  go  to  work  in  order  to  keep  alive,  and 
save  his  family  from  starving? 

A.  I  say  there  is  no  man  but  what  is  or  ought  to  be  capable  of 
making  a  contract.  If  the  State  has  got  paupers  we  have  got  to 
take  care  of  them.  I  say  your  legislation  will  make  them  feel  that 
they  are  paupers,  and  that  is  why  I  object. 

Q.  It  is  a  question  of  existence,  is  it  not,  instead  of  a  question 
of  contract? 

A.  It  is  the  business  of  the  Legislature  to  provide  for  paupers. 
It  is  not  the  business  of  any  individual  or  of  any  particular  employer. 
They  want  to  get  this  thing  down  fine,  apparently,  so  as  to  make 
political  capital  out  of  it,  or  to  mislead,  as  they  do,  laboring  classes 
by  putting  wrong  views  about  certain  things  into  their  heads.  They 
are  now  trying  to  cut  out  the  railroad  corporations,  because  they 
have  so  much  influence.  The  real  thing  is  to  bring  this  thing  down 
so  fine  that  they  can  legislate  so  that  it  won’t  affect  the  people  gen¬ 
erally,  and  they  can  gain  political  capital  by  making  the  people  who 
work  for  a  living  think  they  are  their  special  friends.  Now,  as  far 
as  I  am  concerned,  I  stand  here  as  the  president  of  a  railroad  com¬ 
pany  ;  I  am  running  about  20  miles  of  railroad,  costing  about 


1 


$700,000,  and  I  individually  own  nearly  one-half  of  the  concern,  and  I 
say  to  you,  and  I  know  what  I  am  talking  about,  that  if  we  are  going 
to  be  compelled  to  pay  weekly,  the  railroad  I  am  connected  with  can 
pa}r  weekly  as  well  as  any  other  corporation ;  there  is  no  doubt  about 
that. 

Mr.  O’Sullivan.  We  will  bring  that  railroad  in. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  Is  there  any  part  of  this  railroad  going 
into  Connecticut? 

Mr.  Draper.  I  don’t  undertake  to  say  that  we  should  move  the 
City  of  Boston  or  the  streets  of  the  same  into  Connecticut ;  but  I  do 
undertake  to  say,  and  I  have  brought  up  a  case  where  there  has 
been  corporate  property  taken  out  of  the  State  and  carried  into  Con¬ 
necticut. 

Mr.  Russell.  And  I  inferred  from  that  that  if  such  measures 
passed,  business  will  be  removed. 

Mr.  Draper.  I  have  no  doubt  but  what  legislation  will  cause 
more  or  less  business  to  be  moved  out  of  the  State. 

Mr.  Russell.  Then  it  would  be  the  loss  of  the  business  of  the 
railroad  as  much  as  the  loss  of  the  business  of  the  mills,  wouldn’t  it? 

Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.  I  wanted  to  suggest  something  for  your  inquiry, 
and  that  is  that  some  of  the  new  mills  at  Fall  River  are  built  on 
Rhode  Island  soil  for  the  purpose  of  avoiding  our  laws,  and  their 
operatives  are  still  living  in  Fall  River.  Is  that  so  ? 

Mr.  Stratton.  If  the  gentleman  will  allow  me,  I  will  say  that 
there  is  a  very  strong  movement  in  Rhode  Island  for  the  passage  of 
the  10-hour  law,  and  they  want  the  weekly  payment  system,  too. 

Mr.  Sargent.  That  will  make  it  better  for  Massachusetts  if  we 
don’t  have  weekly  payments. 

Mr.  Draper.  If  we  had  a  law  like  an  act  of  Parliament  that 
would  apply  to  all  the  States,  it  would  allow  one  State  to  compare 
with  another  very  much  better  ;  there  is  no  doubt  about  that.  I  was 
talking  with  a  gentleman  from  Rhode  Island  day  before  yesterday — 
and  by  the  way  he  is  connected  with  three  or  four  corporations  in 
Massachusetts — he  is  one  of  those  that  grew  up  in  the  mill,  he  was 
a  back-boy  in  the  mill.  Now  he  controls  a  large  amount  of  manu¬ 
facturing  machinery  and  would  not  have  to  add  much  to  it  to  make 
him  the  largest  manufacturer  in  the  world.  They  own  mills  at  Read- 
ville,  Dodgeville,  at  Hebronville  and  a  very  extensive  establishment  at 
Munchaug,  and  that  is  only  a  portion  of  the  property  he  owns  to-day  ; 
he  was  speaking  about  Massachusetts  legislation,  and  the  influence 
it  exerts  in  regard  to  its  industries,  and  he  don’t  want  to  have  it  work 
the  same  way  in  Rhode  Island.  To  show  .you  something  of  the 
amount  of  business  he  is  doing  at  the  present  time,  he  asked  me  to 
supply  him  with  a  certain  appliance  we  manufacture,  for  2,000  new 
looms.  The  2,000  looms  would  probably  mean  an  investment  of 
$1,500,000. 


8 


Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  What  State  does  he  propose  to  invest  that 
in  ? 

A.  In  Rhode  Island.  Some  member  of  the  committee  said  they 
had  no  right  to  legislate  in  regard  to  associations,  partnerships  and 
individuals.  If  I  understand  the  matter,  what  they  propose  to  legis¬ 
late  about  is  employes  on  one  hand  and  corporations  on  the  other.  It 
is  an  old  saying  that  it  takes  at  least  two  to  make  a  bargain.  Sup¬ 
pose  the  law  enacted  as  contemplated  ;  then  suppose  an  employe 
says  to  the  corporation  :  “I  will  not  trouble  myself  to  receive  my 
wages  weekly,  I  prefer  to  receive  them  once  a  month.”  Suppose  the 
corporation  says  :  “The  law  requires  us  to  pay  you  once  a  week,  so 
you  must  receive  your  pay  or  the  law  is  broken,  for  which  the  pen¬ 
al  ty  is  to  be  paid.”  Would  you  sue  the  corporation  or  the  individual 
in  that  case  ?  The  plea  that  your  legislation  refers  to  corporations 
alone  will  not  hold  ;  your  legislation  is  intended  to  prevent  the  free¬ 
dom  of  contracts  between  corporations  and  individuals.  It  was  ab¬ 
surdly  claimed  before  the  committee  that  it  was  a  fraud  to  keep  back 
the  pay  of  operatives  four  weeks  before  payment  because  the  wages 
were  due  as  soon  as  earned.  Then  it  is  the  same  kind  of  a  fraud  to 
keep  it  back  one  week  or  one  day,  only  to  a  less  extent.  The  aver¬ 
age  operatives  of  Massachusetts  know  better  than  this.  They  know 
when  the}*  go  to  work  for  a  concern  that  pays  once  a  month  and  tells 
them  so  before  the}'  go  to  work,  that  that  is  one  of  the  terms  of  the 
contract,  and  consequently  no  money  is  due  them  till  pay  day  comes 
round.  You  might  as  well  say  when  I  give  my  note  for  30  days  for 
$100,  I  owe  the  man  $100  and  ought  to  pay  him  the  day  after  the 
note  is  given.  But  suppose  there  is  a  loss  of  interest  to  the  labor¬ 
ing  man,  between  a  contract  to  be  paid  once  a  month  instead  of 
once  a  week,  and  you  compel  the  parties  to  contract  for  once  a 
week,  and  in  consequence  of  this  you  compel  the  corporation  to  as¬ 
sume  large  additional  expense  to  pay  weekly,  does  any  intelligent 
man  suppose  that  they  have  taken  the  amount  of  interest  referred  to 
from  the  corporation  and  given  it  to  the  operatives  permanently ,  be¬ 
sides  putting  the  corporation  to  the  extra  expense  of  frequent  pay¬ 
ments  to  the  operatives,  without  sooner  or  later  changing  the  amount 
paid  to  the  operatives?  If  so,  he  must  be  very  fresh  indeed,  to  say 
the  least ;  if  not,  the  operation  would  be  raising  wages  by  an  act  of 
the  Legislature.  Suppose  it  should  prove  that  the  amount  of  inter¬ 
est  and  additional  expense  would  just  equal  the  amount  of  profits 
made  by  the  corporations,  do  you  not  suppose  they  would  cut  the 
wages  down  to  get  it  back  again,  if  they  could  get  help  at  a  lower 
price  ?  The  Legislature  cannot  afford  to  try  to  make  the  corpora¬ 
tion  pay  any  given  rate  of  wages  for  any  great  length  of  time.  Now, 
I  feel  in  my  bones  that  the  real,  true  objection  to  this  thing  is  that 
you  are  taking  away  the  freedom  of  these  men,  many  of  whom  will 
be  men  who  will  tower  above  us  by-and-by.  It  is  the  glory  of  our 


9 


operatives  that  they  can  rise  up,  and  this  treating  them  as  though 
they  could  not  help  themselves  and  talking  about  them  in  this  whin¬ 
ing  way,  is  the  worst  thing  you  can  do.  They  can  help  themselves. 
Abraham  Lincoln  helped  himself.  He  got  up  from  a  miserable  posi¬ 
tion,  as  it  is  ordinarily  looked  upon.  And  when  I  hear  men  of  edu¬ 
cation  and  means  talk  as  though  these  men  were  so  poor  and  so  ab¬ 
ject  that  they  cannot  help  themselves  (when  I  have  been  in  their 
places  long  enough  to  know  better) ,  I  despise  all  that  sort  of  talk. 
These  men  can  take  care  of  themselves,  and  they  can  take  care  of 
themselves  better  than  the  Legislature  can  by  singling  them  out  and 
undertaking  to  be  their  guardian. 

Q.  (Ety  Mr.  Stratton.)  I  would  like  to  ask  the  gentleman  if  he 
thinks  the  sentiment  in  his  town,  in  Milford,  is  in  favor  of  weekly 
payments  ? 

A.  Well,  I  have  no  special  means  of  knowing  any  further  than 
this  :  That  I  believe  there  are  several  of  the  boot  and  shoe  manufac¬ 
turing  concerns  there  that  are  paying  once  a  week,  and  their  help  un- 
doubtedl}r  prefer  it.  I  see  no  objection  to  that.  As  far  as  England 
is  concerned,  I  have  never  heard  of  anything  but  custom  as  regards 
the  matter  of  paying  weekly  there.  I  don’t  believe  there  is  any  law  on 
the  statute  book  that  fixes  that  thing  at  all,  and  I  think  you  could 
just  as  proper^,  perhaps,  go  to  work  and  say  that  just  as  quickly  as 
they  got  their  week’s  pay,  they  must  go  and  pay  their  store  bills, 
that  they  shall  not  get  a  month’s  credit  when  they  get  their  pay  once 
a  week.  I  think  that  would  be  a  species  of  legislation  that  would 
be  as  beneficial  as  the  other.  Now,  as  far  as  Milford  is  concerned, 
I  say  there  are  in  cities  and  in  thickly  populated  places — very  prob¬ 
ably  if  I  was  coming  down  to  the  city  of  Boston  and  was  going  to 
establish  a  factory  here,  unacquainted  with  all  the  help,  very  likely 
I  should  commence  paying  every  week.  I  presume  some  of  the  cor¬ 
porations  in  which  I  have  stock  do  pay  every  week.  I  am  inclined 
to  think  so.  I  think  that  is  a  matter  which  will  take  care  of  itself. 
When  I  commenced  they  settled  once  in  six  months.  I  worked 
afterwards  when  they  settled  once  in  three  months.  We  have  come 
down  to  where  they  settle  once  a  month.  People  who  choose,  settle 
once  in  two  weeks  or  once  a  week.  I  think  that  is  fast  enough 
where  it  is  for  the  interest  of  the  employer  and  the  employe.  I  think 
they  can  find  it  out  as  well  as  the  Legislature  and  can  fix  the  time. 
I  don’t  object  to  weekly  pay,  if  you  don’t  undertake  to  compel  people 
to  make  such  contracts  and  live  up  to  them.  Now  in  regard  to  my 
help,  I  have  never  had  any  application  to  pay  weekly,  or  oftener 
than  once  a  month,  except  those  who  get  short  and  want  money, 
and  they  always  get  it.  I  employ  quite  a  large  number,  as  an  indi¬ 
vidual.  *  I  employ  a  very  much  larger  number  in  connection  with 
partnerships.  1  presume  I  own  in  corporations  in  this  State  and 
others,  where  there  are  30,000  or  40,000  employed. 


10 


Q.  (By  Mr.  Stratton.)  You  never  knew  that  to  be  said  to  the 
operatives  of  the  Hopedale  Machine  Company?  You  never  made 
that  your  business  to  tell  them  that  they  could  have  their  pay  week- 

iy? 

A.  I  never  have.  I  certainly  have  never  seen  any  occasion  to. 

Q.  Well,  you  didn’t  think  it  was  particularly  your  business  ;  any 
more  than  some  of  the  other  directors  or  trustees,  or  perhaps  your 
son,  or  some  of  the  other  parties? 

A.  I  think  if  there  had  been  any  general  demand  for  it  I  should 
have  heard  of  it. 

Mr.  Stratton.  My  point  is  just  what  the  gentleman  indicates. 
That  while  he  would  look  after  the  interests  of  those  whom  he  direct¬ 
ly  employs,  and  say  that  he  would  pay  them  every  week,  37et  in  a 
corporation  he  would  feel  that  somebody  else  was  quite  as  responsi¬ 
ble  as  he,  and  therefore  it  is  not  his  particular  business  to  ask  them 
if  they  want  to  be  paid  oftener.  For  that  reason  1  believe  it  should 
apply  to  corporations  ;  that  is  the  reason  I  have  always  taken  that 
stand. 

Mr.  Draper.  It  does  seem  to  me  that  the  men  we  employ  have 
the  right  to  be  independent  of  you,  gentlemen  ;  that  37ou  should  dot 
interfere  to  make  their  contracts.  1  don’t  know  why  the}^  are  not  as 
competent  as  you  are,  for  my  part ;  and  I  am  acquainted  with  a 
good  many  of  them. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Carleton.)  Among  the  various  corporations  with 
which  3tou  are  connected,  if  there  was  a  vacancy  and  I  should  apply 
for  it,  would  they  take  me  if  they  found  I  wanted  m37  pa3T  weekly  ? 

A.  I  presume  theyT  would  say  to  \Tou  what  their  custom  was 
about  pa3'ing,  and  if  3tou  had  any  objection  to  make  you  would 
make  it. 

Q.  Supposing  I  should  sayT  I  would  not  work  unless  I  was  to  re¬ 
ceive  my  payT  weekty  ? 

A.  Well,  as  far  as  3Tour  working  there  is  concerned,  that  would 
depend  upon  whether  you  wanted  to  work  or  not. 

Q.  It  would  not  be  a  matter  of  contract  on  m3T  part? 

A.  I  consider  it  a  matter  of  contract  on  37our  part.  I  don’t 
consider  that  either  side  is  compelled  to  close  with  what  the  other 
side  wishes  unless  they  choose. 

Q.  That  is  what  I  wanted  to  know,  whether  I  would  have  the 
chance  to  make  a  contract? 

A.  You  might  have  a  chance  to  make  such  a  contract  as  3tou 
wished ;  I  could  not  compel  you  to  make  any,  nor  you  me. 

Mr.  Carleton.  I  have  got  m37  answer. 

Mr.  Draper.  Yes,  I  think  3Tou  have. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Smith  of  West  Newbur37.)  Your  objection  to 
weekly  payments  is  not  because  3tou  are  opposed  to  them,  but  be¬ 
cause  you  are  opposed  to  legislation  ? 


11 


A.  I  am  opposed  to  legislation  in  a  matter  of  this  kind  on  the 
ground  that  it  takes  away  the  freedom  of  the  individual. 

Q.  There  is  no  difficulty  about  paying  them  ? 

A.  Well,  there  are  cases  where  it  is  exceedingly  difficult,  and 
there  are  cases  where  it  is  ver3r  easy. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  A  corporation  matter  is  not  an  individual 
matter,  is  it? 

A.  It  is  the  corporation  on  the  one  side  and  the  individual  on  the 
other  that  I  am  talking  about.  If  you  can  fix  it  so  that  you  can 
do  anything  with  a  corporation  that  don’t  affect  the  individual,  that 
is  another  matter. 

Q.  Can’t  a  corporation  have  their  rules  in  regard  to  the  admis¬ 
sion  of  an}r  person  who  comes  and  applies  for  work  ?  He  has  got 
to  submit  to  those  rules  or  not  work,  hasn’t  he? 

A.  It  depends  upon  how  particular  the  corporation  is.  If  a  man 
should  come  to  me  and  say  he  wanted  to  work  for  our  corporation, 
we  are  now  paying  once  a  month  ;  if  he  didn’t  care  to  receive  it  but 
once  in  six  months,  I  think  we  could  accommodate  him. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Smith  of  West  Newbury.)  On  the  other  hand, 
could  you  accommodate  him  once  a  week  ? 

A.  On  the  other  hand,  I  have  no  doubt  we  could,  if  he  was  a 
valuable  man. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  If  you  wanted  him  badly  enough  to  break 
3rour  rules? 

A.  Why,  it  is  just  here.  Is  it  not  unnecessary  to  talk  about  com¬ 
pelling  men  to  hire  what  they  won’t  hire  ?  I  hear  so  much  twaddle 
about  that.  They  will  get  something  in  the  paper  that  there  is  a 
law  in  regard  to  hiring  women  and  minors,  and  the  community  are 
finding  fault  because  he  won’t  pay  them  more  than  he  can  afford  to ; 
and  not  one  of  them  will  hire  them  themselves.  Now  that  is  cheap. 

Q.  There  are  corporations  that  will  not  pay  their  employes  ex¬ 
cept  on  pay  days,  or  when  they  are  through  work? 

A,  That  is  your  statement.  1  don’t  know. 

Q.  Now  is  there  any  matter  of  contract  about  that,  except  on 
one  side? 

A.  There  would  be  a  contract  if  somebody  accepted  it.  You 
seem  to  talk  as  if  somebody  was  obliged  on  the  other  side.  Sup¬ 
pose  you  go  to  a  store  and  a  man  says  :  “I  won’t  sell  you  sugar 
for  less  than  ten  cents  per  pound.”  Are  you  in  distress  because  he 
won’t  sell  it  to  you  for  five  cents  per  pound  ?  Do  you  want  me  to 
compel  him  to  let  3'ou  have  it  for  five  cents  per  pound  ?  Or  if  30U 
want  to  go  there  and  get  a  month’s  credit — 

Mr.  Russell.  I  didn’t  ask  for  illustrations. 

Mr.  Draper.  I  thought  I  would  give  you  some,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.)  Why  would  they  ask  Mr.  Russell 
so  much  as  that? 


12 


A.  That  is  a  conundrum. 

Mr.  Russell.  You  seem  to  carry  the  idea  that  a  working  man 
is  in  that  position  where  he  can  contract  or  not  as  he  sees  fit. 

Mr.  Draper.  I  know  a  good  many  working  men  who  can, 
don’t  3Tou  ? 

Q.  (Bjt  Mr.  Russell.)  Contract  as  they  see  fit?  Now  is  it  not 
a  fact  that  a  working  man  must  work?  It  is  a  matter  of  necessity 
with  him,  that  he  must  work,  and  therefore  he  must  submit  to  the 
rules  of  the  corporation  in  order  to  sustain  life  in  himself  and  family? 

A.  I  have  seen  a  good  many  men — 

Q.  Is  not  that  a  fact?  Give  me  an  answer. 

A.  There  is  a  difference  in  men.  I  have  seen  a  good  many 
men  I  don’t  believe  the  Legislature  could  make  work.  Now  talking 
about  people - 

Q.  That  is  a  direct  question  :  Is  not  the  working  man  obliged 
to  work  and  to  submit  to  the  rules  of  the  corporation  in  order  to  sus¬ 
tain  life  for  himself  and  his  family  ? 

A.  I  don’t  think  they  all  are.  There  may  be  some  men  in  that 
condition.  Now  look  here.  It  is  cheap  talk  to  say  that  people  are 
obliged  to  work  for  corporations.  Suppose  a  corporation  should 
offer  them  two  cents  a  day,  are  they  obliged  to  work  for  that  cor¬ 
poration?  I  say  they  are  not  obliged  to.  American  citizens,  Amer¬ 
ican  employes  have  some  choice  as  to  what  they  will  do  and  whom 
they  will  work  for,  and  I  hope  the  Legislature  will  not  prevent  them 
from  making  their  own  terms. 

Q.  You  say  you  came  here  to  protest  in  the  interest  of  the  labor¬ 
ing  men.  Have  you  ever  been  asked  by  any  body  of  them  to  appear 
here? 

A.  I  didn’t  think  that  was  necessarj7.  Being  a  laboring  man 
m}rself  and  one  of  those  concerned  on  the  employes’ side,  I  thought 
I  had  a  right  to  be  here. 

Q.  Doesn’t  it  savor  of  cheap  talk  when  you  have  not  been  asked 
to  come  here - 

A.  Haven’t  I  a  right  as  an  individual  to  take  an  interest?  I 
paid  out  thousands  of  dollars  towards  liberating  the  slaves.  They 
never  asked  me  to  do  it. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  you  had  appeared  here  year  after 
year.  Has  it  not  been  for  the  corporations  and  to  oppose  this  leg¬ 
islation  ? 

A.  It  has  been  for  the  express  purpose  of  opposing  this  compul¬ 
sory  legislation,  and  for  the  reason  I  believe  it  is  against  the  interest 
of  the  Commonwealth,  against  the  interests  of  the  corporations,  and 
against  the  interests  of  the  employes  that  you  are  undertaking  to 
legislate  for. 

Q.  There  are  no  personal  interests  involved  ? 

A.  I  am  not  aware  that  there  is  any  personal  interest  involved 


13 


otherwise  than  as  a  citizen  of  the  Commonwealth  opposed  to  com¬ 
pulsory  legislation. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.)  Are  you  a  member  of  the  Knights 
of  Labor  ? 

A.  I  am  not  a  member  of  any  secret  society  whatever.  I  am 
open  and  above-board  and  ready  to  answer  any  question  about  this 
matter.  It  is  really  a  serious  matter,  if  gentlemen  will  look  at  it  as 
I  do.  You  can  legislate  on  what  conditions  a  man  and  wife  may 
get  married,  but  it  is  not  this  Legislature  or  all  the  Legislatures  in 
the  world  that  can  make  a  man  treat  his  wife  as  he  ought  to,  or  that 
can  make  a  wife  treat  her  husband  as  she  ought  to.  And  so  in  re¬ 
gard  to  corporations,  there  may  be  corporations  that  will  treat  the 
help  as  they  ought  to,  and  there  may  be  corporations  that  will  not 
treat  them  as  the}7  ought  to.  1  believe  that  corporations,  as  a  rule, 
treat  their  help  better  than  individual  employers  do,  so  far  as  my 
experience  goes. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Bennett.)  In  regard  to  the  question  of  railroads,  I 
think  you  spoke  about  it?  • 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  railroads  ought  to  pay  weekly  as  well 
as  any  other  class  of  corporations  in  this  Commonwealth? 

A.  I  think  they  can,  as  well  as  man}’  others,  and  that  they  ought 
to,  whether  they  can  conveniently  or  inconveniently  ;  if  you  are 
going  to  make  a  law,  let  us  cover  as  much  as  possible.  I  don’t  be¬ 
lieve  in  singling  out  single  institutions  and  legislating  to  their  ad¬ 
vantage  or  disadvantage. 

Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.  Mr.  Anderson  wanted  to  state  one  thing 
about  the  pay  roll  which  he  thought  you  misunderstood. 

Mr.  Anderson.  It  was  simply  this  :  Mr.  Bennett  told  me  he 
didn’t  understand  my  answer  at  the  time,  and  I  wanted  to  make  it 
clear  to  all  the  members  of  the  committee.  So  far  as  weekly  pay¬ 
ments  are  concerned  I  said  that  the  labor  each  week  as  compared 
with  the  labor  of  the  month  I  thought  would  be,  in  making  up  the 
pay  roll,  from  one-half  to  two-thirds — am  I  understood,  Mr.  Ben¬ 
nett?  So  far  as  putting  up  the  money  and  paying  out  the  money  is 
concerned,  which  is  another  branch,  it  would  be  multiplied  by  as 
many  times  as  the  number  of  payments  are  multiplied.  It  is  just  as 
much  work  to  pay  out  seventy-five  cents  as  to  pay  out  seventy-five 
dollars.  And  so  far  as  putting  it  up  is  concerned,  the  labor  would 
be  increased  as  many  times  as  the  payments  are  increased.  Per¬ 
haps  the  matter  of  making  up  the  pay  roll  would  not  be  increased  in 
proportion.  That  is  all  with  this  exception :  That  it  has  struck 
me  as  a  little  incongruous  that  a  large  number  of  those  appearing 
here  from  year  to  year  and  applying  for  this  matter  are  those  now 
enjoying  it,  and  are  not  the  operatives  in  our  mills  who  are  at  pres¬ 
ent  paid  monthly. 


TESTIMONY  OF  ROYAL  E.  ROBBINS. 


Q.  (By  Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.)  You  are  treasurer  of  the  American 
Watch  Compan}r.  How  many  men  do  you  employ  there? 

A.  At  the  present  time  about  2,000. 

Q.  Are  you  running  on  full  time  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  on  full  time,  but  not  full  handed. 

Q.  Will  you  state  whether  in  your  judgment  it  would  be  a  benefit 
to  the  State  to  have  payments  made  weekly  instead  of  monthly, 
whether  it  would  be  a  benefit  to  operatives  in  general,  and  how  it 
would  work  in  your  form  of  manufacturing? 

A.  I  cannot  see  how  it  would  be  of  any  benefit  to  the  State. 
On  the  contrary  I  think  it  would  have  a  tendency  to  drive  away  new 
manufactories.  I  can  hardly  say  that  old  manufacturers  established 
here  would  be  so  far  discouraged  by  such  a  law  as  to  move  to  another 
State,  but  I  think  it  would  have  a  very  decided  tendency  to  check 
the  establishment  of  new  enterprises,  because  it  would  be  an  addi¬ 
tion  to  the  number  of  laws  which  seem  to  favor  other  States  rather 
than  Ours,  already  existing  here.  Then  as  to  our  people,  I  am  very 
sure  they  don’t  want  it  and  don’t  need  it.  I  have  been  treasurer 
there  twenty-seven  years,  and  I  have  never  had  a  single  individual 
ask  me  for  more  frequent  payment  than  he  gets,  which  is  once  a 
month.  Our  system  is  to  pay  on  the  thirteenth  of  every  month  when 
that  does  not  occur  on  Sunday.  That  gives  us  eleven  days  on  the 
average — two  of  them  being  Sundays — in  which  to  make  up  our  pay¬ 
roll  for  the  month.  The  first  three  or  four  days,  and  sometimes  five 
days,  are  taken  up  by  departments,  our  factory  being  divided  into 
twent3’-four  different  departments.  The  accountants  in  these  several 
departments  are,  the  first  three  or  four  days,  necessarily  engaged  in 
making  up  the  accounts  of  the  working  people  in  their  several  de¬ 
partments.  Their  reports,  exactly  as  they  make  them  in  their  own 
hand-writing,  are  then  returned  to  the  main  office.  (Producing  cer¬ 
tain  pay-rolls.)  These  are  pay-rolls  for  a  number  of  months  which 
I  have  brought  here  to  show  the  committee,  to  show  them  more  par¬ 
ticularly  the  method  we  follow,  the  magnitude  of  the  account,  and 
the  intricacy  of  it.  I  should  be  very  glad  to  have  the  gentlemen 
look  at  them.  These  are  two  pay-rolls  ;  they  are  taken  at  haphaz¬ 
ard,  without  an}T  selection  whatever,  to  show  two  or  three  things. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Stratton.)  Thoseworking  upon  machinery  work  by 
the  day? 

A.  Those  working  upon  machinery  work  by  the  day.  I  should 


16 


say  that  about  one-quarter  of  all  our  force  work  by  the  day,  and 
three-quarters  b}7  the  piece.  These  very  sheets  of  which  these  books 
are  composed  are  reports  from  the  several  departments  ;  and  they 
are  taken  by  our  head  accountants  and  formulated  into  that  book. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.)  As  I  understand,  in  the  beginning 
there  are  certain  reports  of  machine^,  and  they  are  paid  by  the  day. 

A.  One  of  the  departments  is  the  machine  shop,  and  they  will 
find  there  several  sheets  of  the  pay-roll  which  relate  to  the  machine 
shop.  The  machine  shop  sheets  are  included,  with  all  the  rest  of  the 
shop  sheets,  in  the  pay-roll  for  the  month. 

It  takes  three  or  four  days  to  prepare  these  sheets  originally  in  the 
department  rooms.  Then  they  come  to  the  main  office,  where  thejT 
have  to  be  examined,  checked,  carried  out  and  footed  up  by  two 
different  hands.  Then  the  receipts  have  to  be  prepared.  That 
work  having  been  done  the  last  two  or  three  days  of  the  previous 
month,  the  time  having  been  added  up,  the  amount  ascertained,  and 
the  money  drawn  from  the  bank,  about  two  days  are  consumed  in 
counting  the  money  and  putting  it  in  envelopes  ;  a  part  of  the  da}T, 
which  is  the  thirteenth,  is  taken  up  with  distributing  the  mone}7  to 
the  hands.  We  have  some  good  accountants  out  there,  and  they 
can  pay  off  our  hands  in  two  hours,  the  whole  2,000  or  2,100.  We 
can  pay  them  off  by  a  system  we  have  adopted  within  the  last  year. 

Q.  How  is  that  done? 

A.  We  take  a  receipt  and  deliver  it  to  each  hand  before  pay  day. 
We  send  it  around  by  the  foreman.  He  takes  it  home  with  him, 
signs  it  and  brings  it  back,  ready  for  the  paymaster  when  he 
comes  around  ;  the  paymaster  comes  around  with  his  wagon,  with 
the  envelopes  all  numbered,  so  that  2,000  people  are  paid  in  two 
hours.  Ninety-eight  thousand  dollars  were  thus  paid  this  morning 
before  ten  o’clock.  It  is  a  system  which  certain!}’  is  a  great  im¬ 
provement  on  anything  I  have  ever  heard  of. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Gunn.)  Do  your  men  pass  by  in  lines? 

A.  No  ;  they  sit  at  their  benches  at  work,  and  it  don’t  take  but 
a  few  seconds  to  exchange  their  receipts,  already  signed,  for  their  en¬ 
velopes. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.)  Do  you  think  you  could  pay  four 
times  a  month? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  should  regard  it  as  physically  impossible  to  pa}7 
four  times  a  month  in  that  room. 

Q.  Why? 

A.  We  could  not  apply  the  clerks  to  the  one  duty  of  preparing 
the  pay-roll  so  as  to  bring  it  out  possibly  within  a  week.  It  has  all 
got  to  be  done  within  a  week.  Of  course  there  is  nothing  abso¬ 
lutely  impossible.  I  mean  it  is  substantially  impossible.  We  would 
have  to  employ  too  many  hands  to  do  it ;  they  would  be  running 
over  each  other,  and  then  the  work  would  not  be  half  done.  To 


17 


have  it  done  in  an  orderly,  decent  and  respectable  way,  it  cannot  be 
done  any  quicker,  in  our  opinion,  and  we  have  the  best  men  about 
it  that  I  know  of.  It  cannot  be  done  any  quicker  than  we  are  now 
doing  it.  The  system  would  not  allow  of  our  paying  once  a  fort¬ 
night.  Now  the  reason  why  it  could  not  be  done  in  our  shop,  even 
once  a  fortnight,  is  this :  You  will  see,  if  you  look  over  those 
books,  that  a  large  number  of  people  are  working  on  piece  work ; 
for  the  most  part  they  are  working  on  monthly  jobs.  The  whole 
system  of  our  factory  is  a  month  taken  as  a  unit  of  labor  and  of 
time.  We  work  by  the  month,  we  buy  and  pay  by  the  month.  The 
work  is  given  out  originally  from  headquarters  as  a  month’s  duty. 
The  superintendent  makes  out  his  cards  like  this  :  There  is  a  pro¬ 
gramme  for  all  the  departments  to  follow.  They  have  to  take  that 
up,  dissect  it  and  see  what  their  duties  under  it  are,  and  proceed  to 
give  out  the  work  to  the  hands.  They  give  this  man  a  job  that  will 
last  a  week,  this  one  a  job  that  will  last  a  month,  and  another 
a  job  that  will  last  two  weeks,  just  according  as  the  stock  on 
hand  may  be,  all  off  the  same  piece ;  so  that  there  is  a  great 
variety  of  work  and  a  great  difference  in  the  time  required  for 
different  people  to  do  their  work.  Some,  I  say,  have  to  take 
a  whole  month  about  it ;  they  cannot  be  interrupted  in  their 
work;  thej7  must  go  right  along  with  it  as  they  get  it.  We 
take  out  blanks  enough  for  the  object  in  hand,  which  is  to  produce  a 
certain  number  of  watches,  or  parts  of  them  ;  and  they  must  follow 
it  up  in  order  to  do  the  work  economically,  without  let  or  hindrance. 
Those  cards,  each  number  that  you  see  there,  represent  ten  watches 
that  are  all  stamped.  They  are  then  started  on  their  career  in  the 
shop,  the  first  room  being  the  plate  room.  The  man  begins  to  de¬ 
liver  his  goods  according  to  that  programme,  strictly,  to  the  next 
department,  which,  meantime,  has  been  engaged  in  making,  so  far 
as  it  can,  the  pieces  appropriate.  They  are  all  served  with  these 
same  cards,  and  they  know  what  is  coming.  So  the  work  goes 
through  the  shop,  according  to  this  monthly  system,  until  eventually, 
these  watches  will  begin  to  come  out,  just  exactly  as  they  are  put  in. 
And  to  interfere  with  that  s}7stem  would  reduce  us  to  chaos  ;  it 
could  not  be  done  ;  we  could  pay  once  a  fortnight.  Practically  we 
could  make  up  our  pay-roll,  but  we  could  not  reorganize  our  shops 
so  that  it  should  be  brought  down  to  a  system  of  an  account  once  a 
week  or  once  a  fortnight  without  destroying  the  whole  administra¬ 
tive  economy  that  we  have  established  after  twenty-five  or  thirty 
years  of  work.  I  should  rather  pay  almost  any  amount  of  fine  that 
you  might  attach  for  the  violation  of  any  such  law,  than  to  attempt 
to  change  this  S3Tstem,  either  of  work  or  of  pay. 

Q.  Your  objections  to  this  are  not  based  at  all  upon  the  fact  that 
3rou  would  have  to  pa3T  the  mone3T  an3T  oftener,  but  simply  as  a  matter 
of  inconvenience  and  impossibility  in  doing  yTour  business,  is  it  not? 


18 


A.  The  mere  matter  of  money  is  of  no  account.  We  always 
have  money  in  the  bank  to  pay  off  the  workmen  as  fast  as  it  is  due. 
I  don’t  think  there  would  be  much  trouble  about  that.  There  would 
be  a  certain  expense.  I  think  it  would  cost  §4,000  or  $5,000  a  year 
to  pay  once  a  fortnight,  by  the  addition  of  more  accountants.  But 
I  should  not  care  anything  about  that.  That  is  not  the  question  at 
all.  Nor  is  it  a  question  of  enjoying  the  use  of  our  operatives’ 
money.  In  point  of  fact,  that  is  a  very  small  aftair,  if  you  will  con¬ 
sider  how  much  could  be  saved  in  that  direction.  A  man  earning 
$50  per  month,  at  the  utmost,  could  not  claim  that  he  should  be 
allowed  over  twenty  da}7s’  interest.  That  is  to  say,  if  he  is  to  be 
paid  once  a  week,  at  the  end  of  the  first  week  there  is  nothing  due 
to  him  in  the  way  of  interest,  there  would  be  one  week’s  interest 
due  on  the  first  at  the  end  of  the  second,  and  so  on.  So  that  if  we 
pay  him  on  the  first  day  of  the  following  month  there  would  be 
about  ten  days  of  real  interest  due  him.  If  he  be  detained  or  de¬ 
layed  in  his  pay  until  the  tenth,  sav,  there  would  be  about  twenty 
da}Ts’  interest,  and  a  man  earning  $50  would  be  entitled  to  sixteen 
and  two-thirds  cents  additional  interest. 

Mr.  Robbins.  It  strikes  me  that  does  not  enter  into  this  at  all, 
the  use  of  the  operatives’  money. 

Q.  It  is  a  mere  matter  of  bargain  ? 

A.  That  is  it.  Every  man  who  comes  into  our  employ,  comes 
with  the  understanding  that  he  shall  be  paid  as  other  people  are 
paid.  I  am  paid  once  a  month.  I  take  my  pay  like  any  other  work¬ 
man.  It  is  a  matter  of  pride  and  self-respect  with  the  workmen  ; 
they  don’t  want  to  be  treated  as  day  laborers  ;  they  would  not  have 
their  money  once  a  week.  I  would  not  want  to  be  the  man  to  go 
around  through  that  factory  with  a  petition  for  weekly  payments. 
I  don’t  think  I  would  be  well  treated.  They  are  not  paupers  or 
imbeciles  ;  they  are  well-to-do  people  of  the  Commonwealth  ;  the}7  and 
all  others  in  this  class,  of  which  the  American  Watch  Company  is 
one  ;  the  class  of  metal  workers,  metallic  goods  makers,  workers  in 
machinery,  in  stone,  furniture,  straw  and  leather.  There  are  seven 
different  trades  I  have  had  the  curiosity  to  figure  on.  There  are 
seven  different  trades  whose  pay  will  average  $11.99  a  week,  ac¬ 
cording  to  Col.  Wright’s  report ;  not  that  all  of  them  are  employed 
by  corporations.  I  have  no  means  of  getting  at  what  proportion 
are  employed  by  corporations  and  what  not;  but  there  are  123,000 
men — not  women  or  young  persons — in  Massachusetts  working  at 
these  seven  trades.  They  earn  on  an  average,  as  I  sa}7,  $11.99  per 
week.  I  have  gone  through  the  figures  m}Tself,  just  out  of  curiosity. 
Now  I  say  these  men  are  in  circumstances  of  comfort. 

Q.  How  many  are  there  of  these  operatives  ? 

A.  One  hundred  and  twenty- three  thousand  three  hundred  and 
seventy-five. 


19 


Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.  Well,  130,000  would  be  half  of  all  the  wage 
laborers  in  the  state. 

Mr.  Robbins.  I  have  the  list  here,  and  I  will  let  you  take  it. 
Now  I  say  those  men  have  not  been  heard  from  at  these  hearings  ; 
not  one  of  them,  that  I  have  heard  of.  You  have  heard  from  some 
of  the  industries,  and  a  most  admirable  statement  from  Mr.  Dalton, 
with  every  word  of  which  the  American  Watch  company  would  agree. 
But  you  have  not  heard  from  the  men  who  are  the  native  born 
Yankee  workmen  of  Massachusetts.  Mr.  Dalton  and  those  compan¬ 
ies  which  he  represents,  employ,  I  believe  it  is  well  known — I  want 
to  speak  with  the  highest  respect  of  all  working  people — Mr.  Dalton 
employs  Canadian  Frenchmen  and  foreigners  generally,  in  the  main 
body  of  his  mills.  But  these  people  I  am  speaking  for,  those  Wal¬ 
tham  people  and  those  I  suppose  to  be  in  sympathy  with  them 
throughout  the  state,  are  the  native  born  of  Massachusetts,  the  in¬ 
genious  Yankees.  The}7  are  the  people  who  have  made  mostly  the 
reputation  of  this  State  in  the  mechanical  arts.  The}7  are  the  men 
who  fill  the  churches,  who  fill  the  schools,  who  support  local  trade 
and  all  local  traditions.  They  don’t  want  any  such  legislation  as 
•  this,  I  am  certain.  They  can  take  care  of  themselves.  They  can 
make  their  own  bargains.  They  ought  to  make  their  own  bargains. 
Why  shouldn’t  they  ?  They  make  something  to  sell  that  we  have 
got  to  have.  We  can  do  nothing  without  them.  And  I  say  we  meet 
on  perfectly  equal  terms  when  we  come  to  make  a  bargain  in  regard 
to  their  work  in  the  shop.  I  have  as  often  to  yield  to  working 
people  as  they  do  to  me,  in  any  bargain.  Now  I  say  it  is  a  work 
of  supererogation  to  provide  that  they  shall  have  their  pay  once  a 
month,  once  a  fortnight  or  once  a  week ;  I  think  they  may  be 
trusted  to  take  care  of  themselves.  They  know  enough  :  they  know 
more  than  most  of  us. 

Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.  Except  the  committee. 

Mr.  Robbins.  Well,  except  the  committee. 

Mr.  Russell.  Perhaps  you  had  better  except  the  people  that 
sent  us  here. 

Mr.  Robbins.  They  are  the  respected  and  respectable  people  of 
this  Commonwealth,  and  I  say  they  don’t  want  any  such  pauper 
treatment  as  is  proposed  by  this  legislation,  and  don’t  need  it.  They 
have  got  money  in  the  savings  banks.  I  will  be  bound  to  say  there 
is  not  ten  per  cent,  of  the  people  employed  in  our  works  at  Waltham 
who  have  not  got  their  money  laid  by,  and  who  could  not  just  as  well 
do  without  their  pay  for  six  months  as  I  could.  Now,  I  want  to 
say  to  you  further  that  there  is  no  suffering  amongst  our  people,  any 
more  than  there  is  among  Mr.  Dalton’s  people,  for  the  want  of 
money.  (Producing  a  blank  form.)  There  is  a  form  upon  which 
any  man  who  needs  money  can  dra\y  it  without  leaving  his  seat,  any 
time  during  the  lponth. 


20 


Q.  (By  Mr.  Smith,  of  West  Newbury.)  No  questions  asked? 

A.  No  questions  asked  except  whether  he  needs  it.  Of  course 
it  is  not  open  for  any  man  to  come  and  get  just  as  much  money  as 
he  wants  on  no  pretence  or  on  any  pretence  whatever,  but  if  he 
shows  his  foreman  that  he  is  in  need  of  money  for  anything  like  sick¬ 
ness  or  distress,  all  he  has  to  do  is  to  tell  his  foreman  as  he  comes 
along  that  he  wants  to  draw  five  or  ten  dollars  ;  the  foreman  makes 
out  that  piece  of  paper,  he  signs  it,  and  the  mone}'  is  brought  back 
and  delivered  to  him  at  his  bench.  Now  I  want  to  show  you  how 
much  that  is  availed  of  in  our  shop,  in  order  to  show  you  that  they 
don’t  need  their  money.  You  will  see  on  those  pay-rolls  there  a 
column  “paid  on  account.”  Now  that  column  includes,  first,  the 
charge  of  rent,  which  is  in  red  ink,  to  those  people  who  hire  of  us 
their  houses  ;  next,  payments  to  those  who  are  paid  in  full  by  reason 
of  their  leaving  during  the  month  ;  third,  it  includes  those  who  have 
drawn  money  on  account.  You  will  see  that  in  the  month  of  June, 
if  you  were  to  take  pains  to  figure  it  out,  that  there  were  only  $302 
drawn  in  that  month  ;  which  is  less  than  three-eighths  of  one  per 
cent,  of  the  pa}T-roll.  In  the  month  oftOctober  there  were  $631 
drawn  by  thirty-one  people,  which  is  less  than  one-half  of  one  per 
cent,  of  the  pay-roll.  And  that  with  perfect  freedom  of  asking  for 
all  the  money  they  want  on  any  reasonable  occasion .  I  don’t  know 
that  I  have  anything  further  to  say. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Stratton.)  Can  you  give  any  reason  why  they 
should  not  ask  for  more  money  in  the  month  of  June? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  you  have  a  vacation  about  July  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  not  oftener  than  trade  ordains. 

Q.  Do  you  have  any  part  of  the  year  for  vacation? 

A.  Not  a  day,  if  we  can  help  it. 

Q.  I  thought  you  gave  the  employes  two  weeks  every  }^ear? 

A.  We  don’t  unless  we  are  obliged  to. 

q.  (By  Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.)  From  want  of  work? 

A.  Want  of  work.  If  trade  is  bad  we  give  them,  as  we  did  this 
year,  thirty  days  at  a  time.  The  year  before  we  gave  them  four¬ 
teen  days  ;  the  year  before  that  we  would  not  give  them  one,  not 
one  in  the  whole  }Tear. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Bennett.)  Do  you  do  your  work  upon  the  piece 
system  ? 

A.  About  three-quarters  of  it,  as  you  will  see  by  the  pay-rolls. 

Q.  How  many  parts  are  there  to  the  parts  that  you  give  out? 

A.  Average  about  140  ;  and  the  number  of  processes  or  opera¬ 
tions  which  these  pieces  pass  through  is  3,740. 

Q.  Do  you  carry  140  parts  through  your  books? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  more  than  that,  a  good  deal;  because  all  watches 
are  not  alike.  One  hundred  and  forty  parts  would  be  about  the 


21 


number  that  some  watches  would  take,  but  these  parts  would  not 
necessarily  be  the  same,  exactly,  as  go  into  other  watches,  because 
we  make  about  forty  different  varieties  of  watches. 

Q.  What  I  want  to  get  at,  is,  the  number  of  parts  you  carry 
through  your  books,  so  as  to  get  some  idea  of  the  amount  of  labor 
you  have  in  making  up  your  paj’-roll.  You  say  you  carry  through 
about  140,  and  that  is  the  average  perhaps. 

A.  That  is  the  average  of  all  the  watches, but  I  sa}r  there  are  forty 
different  sorts  of  watches,  some  of  which  would  take  just  the  [same 
parts  in  just  the  wa}T  they  are  ordinarily  made. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Bennett.)  Here  is  a  man  who  takes  out  a  certain 
part.  Perhaps  he  may  go  through  one,  two  or  three  performances 
upon  that  one  aiticle,  but  still  it  goes  out  as  one.  Is  there  any  such 
thing  as  that  ? 

A.  Well,  yes.  We  have,  for  example,  pinions.  The}’  are  in  the 
first  place  cut  off  from  wire.  Then  they  are  given  to  girls,  mostly,  to 
begin  the  turnings  upon  them.  They  ordinarily  have  to  turn  about 
nine  different  turnings,  which  they  do  by  a  diagram. 

Q.  Does  the  same  girl  do  that? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  There  are  nine  turnings,  but  it  don’t  necessarily  go  through 
the  hands  of  nine  girls  ? 

A.  One  girl  will  do  those  nine  turnings,  and  those  are  one- 
ninth  of  the  piece.  It  would  then  go  to  those  who  cut  the  leaves  b}^ 
machinery.  From  there  it  would  go  to  those  who  do  some  turning 
bv  hand  ;  a  little  guttering  has  to  be  made  to  prevent  the  oil  from 
running.  Then  it  has  got  to  go  to  the  polisher.  All  different  parts 
of  the  same  piece.  So  that  a  pinion,  probably,  before  it  is  finished 
as  a  pinion,  before  it  is  attached  to  a  wheel,  will  have  gone  through 
a  dozen  or  fifteen  different  hands — that  same  pinion. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  I  understood  you  to  say  you  could  not 
stop  at  any  other  time  except  a  month  to  make  up  the  pay-roll,  or 
the  account  of  any  man’s  work  ? 

A.  It  is  frequently  so. 

Q.  (Referring  to  the  pay-roll.)  I  want  to  know  if  you  cannot 
stop  this  piece  work  any  minute  }’ou  go  in  there  and  ascertain  just 
where  that  man  stands  in  regard  to  his  work  ? 

A.  No,  it  would  not  be  practicable  to  do  that. 

Q.  Not  practicable,  perhaps,  but  can’t  you  do  it? 

A.  I  can  shut  up  the  shop  if  you  like. 

Q.  Can’t  you  get  to  any  man’s  overseer  and  find  out  just  how 
that  man  stands  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  any  time  during  the  month.  We  will  suppose 
a  man  has  taken  a  monthly  job. 

Q.  Suppose  he  has  taken  a  weekly  job? 

A.  He  would  take  it  at  a  higher  price.  It  could  be  sub-divided, 


22 


but  the  man  would  charge  a  higher  price  for  doing  it.  It  must  be 
so  or  else  we  must  get  a  less  amount  of  work.  I  want  to  say  that 
the  man  who  takes  his  monthly  job  has  got  a  great  variety  of 
work  to  do  on  the  pieces  he  has  taken.  He  goes  along  on  them 
as  fast  as  he  can.  B}’  the  time  he  gets  some  of  his  pieces  on 
one  stage,  others  will  be  at  another  stage,  and  he  intends  to  bring 
it  all  out  at  the  end  of  the  month  as  finished  work.  Theil  he  can 
count  up  all  the  different  operations  that  he  has  gone  through  and 
make  his  return  properly.  But  I  don’t  think  it  would  be  practical 
or  possible  to  break  in  upon  his  work,  done  only  in  a  small  propor¬ 
tion,  it  may  be  in  some  cases,  and  a  larger  proportion,  in  another, 
and  find  out  just  what  is  due  to  him.  The  calculation  never  has 
been  made  in  our  shop  that  I  know  of.  A  man  has  taken  35,000 
pieces  ;  he  may  have  arrived  at  the  34,000th  piece,  but  he  won’t 
know  that  he  has  arrived  there.  He  keeps  along.  So  with  all  the 
rest  of  his  pieces  Other  people  in  his  employ  will  have  got  hold  of 
some  other  piece  of  work.  They  are  all  pushing  it  along  so  that  at 
the  end  of  the  month  it  shall  be  brought  out  as  finished. 

Q.  It  seems  that  in  these  accounts  100  is  the  unit  of  amount  and 
that  the  price  is  so  many  cents.  Therefore,  at  any  time  you  can 
find  out  what  is  due  to  the  men  ? 

A.  There  is  no  difficult}"  in  figuring  out  the  amount;  it  is  the 
work  that  we  cannot  figure. 

Q.  Will  you  explain  the  fact  that  individual  firms  usually  pay 
weekly,  if  you  think  that  weekly  payments  will  drive  business  out 
of  the  State  ? 

A.  I  can  suppose  that  people  located  here  in  Massachusetts,  if 
they  had  an  opening  for  an  enterprise,  would  not  be  deterred  by  the 
difference  in  the  cost  of  paying  weekl}"  or  monthly  ;  they  are  not 
going  to  pull  up  stakes  and  go  to  some  other  State. 

Q.  I  don’t  think  you  understand  it.  We  have  no  law  here  now, 
yet  a  great  many  individual  firms  are  paying  their  men  weekly  as  a 
matter  of  polic}’. 

A.  It  may  be  convenient  for  some  people  to  do  it.  If  we  were  a 
small  concern  and  our  work  was  not  complicated  in  this  way,  I 
should  not  have  any  objections  to  paying  weekly,  not  at  all ;  that  is, 
if  our  work  people  wanted  it.  It  is  on  account  of  the  practical  dif¬ 
ficulties  in  our  case  and  in  the  case  of  all  large  corporations  making 
complicated  work,  that  I  object  to  it. 

Q.  I  wish  to  ask  you  in  regard  to  those  seven  trades  }"ou  have 
named — do  you  know  of  any  corporation  engaged  in  those  trades? 

A.  Yes,  a  good  many. 

Q.  Will  you  name  them? 

A.  Well,  tlie  Oliver  Ames  Plow  company  for  one;  and  the 
Washburn  &  Moen  company  of  Worcester  for  another, 

(^.  Untjer  wbat  heading  have  you  got  them  ? 


23 


A.  They  are  both  metallic  goods.  They  are  corporations. 

Q.  Please  name  any  others.  Please  name  as  far  as  the  data 
you  have  got  there,  and  give  us  your  opinion  about  corporations 
working  at  those  trades.  You  have  given  us  two  instances. 

A.  I  have  drawn  those  figures  from  Col.  Wright’s  report. 

Q.  Several  of  these  have  come  up  before  the  committee  before 
and  it  has  been  stated  that  the3r  were  not  generally  corporations, 
and  that  they  didn’t  pajr  but  seven,  eight  or  nine  dollars  per  week 
for  adult  male  labor. 

A.  Well.  I  have  no  means  of  separating  those  incorporated  from 
those  not  incorporated.  I  naturally  infer  . that  the  larger  proportion 
of  this  is  distinguished  from  boots  and  shoes,  which  I  have  not 
included  here ;  and  from  clothing,  which  I  have  not  included,  and 
which  is  a  very  large  item. 

Q.  I  beg  your  pardon.  Is  the  detail  of  }’Our  work  reported  to 
your  office  before  the  end  of  the  month? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  to  the  main  office.  It  is  kept  track  of  by  the 
subordinate  officers  all  the  time. 

Q.  It  is  reported  b}^  the  overseers  to  the  subordinate  officers  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  often? 

A.  When  a  man  has  finished  his  work,  or  when  he  has  got  a  job 
so  far  along  that  he  $ees  he  can  report  it,  he  reports  it. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.)  It  is  inspected,  I  suppose? 

A.  It  is  all  inspected. 


TESTIMONY  OE  WILLIAM  P.  ANDERSON. 


Q.  (By  Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.)  Mr.  Anderson,  you  are  paymaster 
of  the  Pacific  Mills? 

A.  I  am. 

Q.  How  many  are  employed  at  the  Pacific? 

A.  There  are  at  present  on  the  books  something  over  5,300. 

Q.  Plow  often  do  you  pay? 

A.  Once  a  month. 

Q.  I  wish  to  ask  you  in  the  first  place  whether  it  would  be  very 
difficult  for  you  to  pay  weekly  ? 

A.  Practically  it  would  be  impossible. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  why,  to  the  committee? 

A.  Because  of  the  labor  and  because  of  the  risk.  I  have  brought 
with  me  to-day  the  papers  which  I  used  in  making  up  a  single  pay¬ 
roll. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.)  What  kind  of  manufacture  is  this? 

A.  Cotton  and  worsted.  The  pay-roll  has  upon  it  the  name  of 
the  operative,  the  number  of  the  room  in  which  he  works — we  don’t 
number  from  one  up  to  5,000,  but  we  number  them  by  rooms  for 
convenience,  and  for  keeping  the  numbers  as  small  as  possible — the 
number  of  hours  worked  by  the  operative,  the  amount  of  work  done 
by  the  operative,  with  the  price  for  piece  work  and  for  work  done 
by  the  hour,  the  gross  amount  due  to  the  operative,  the  deduction 
due  for  rent,  if  they  are  in  our  tenements,  and  the  net  amount  due 
each  operative. 

Q.  That  is  all  shown  on  the  book  before  Mr.  Russell,  is  it? 

A.  It  is  all  shown  on  one  book  before  one  of  the  gentlemen  of 
the  committee.  In  paying,  a  time  bill  is  given  to  each  operative,  and 
I  have  brought  the  time  bills  here,  of  which  this  is  a  sample.  There 
are  seven  boxes.  Each  operative  is  given  a  time  bill  upon  which  is 
written  the  name,  the  number  on  the  pa}’ -roll,  the  number  of  the 
operative,  the  hours  worked,  the  piece  work  done,  with  the  price  for 
each  piece,  and  that  is  signed  by  the  operative.  I  have  brought 
here  these  seven  boxes  containing  the  receipts  for  one  pay-roll.  The 
boxes  are  all  classified  and  they  are  all  full.  The  seven  boxes  con¬ 
tain  over  5,000  receipts.  These  time  bills  are  made  up  before  the 
pay-roll  is  paid.  They  are  looked  over  by  the  operatives,  are  signed 
by  the  operatives,  and  then  are  handed  to  me,  as  I  go  from  room  to 
room.  In  exchange  for  these  receipts  I  give  each  operative  an  en¬ 
velope  containing  the  money  due  them  ;  each  operative  has  an  oppor- 


26 


tunity  for  seeing  whether  the  work  for  which  he  or  she  is  to  be  paid 
is  correctly  stated,  and  whether  the}"  are  to  receive  the  amount 
which  is  properly  due  them.  These  seven  boxes  contain  simply  the 
receipts  for  one  pay-roll,  and  they  will  be  the  same  under  a  weekly 
or  fortnightly  system  of  pay  as  they  are  under  the  monthly  system 
of  paying.  In  connection  with  making  up  the  pay-roll  you  will  see 
by  looking  over  the  boxes  that  there  are  more  or  less  yellow  bills.  A 
yellow  bill  denotes  that  the  operative  is  through  working  and  re¬ 
ceives  his  pay  at  the  time  of  leaving ;  and  that  necessitates  a  list 
being  kept  of  all  these  operatives  who  receive  their  pay  before  the 
time  books  are  received  and  the  pay-roll  is  made  up.  Those  are 
kept  in  this  book.  (Another  book).  And  I  was  surprised, on  talk¬ 
ing  with  some  gentleman,  not  of  this  committee,  but  of  a  previous 
committee,  at  the  misconception  that  was  in  his  mind  as  to  the  num¬ 
ber  of  operatives  leaving  in  the  ordinary  course  of  business,  from 
time  to  time.  This  book  contains  the  daily  payments  of  those  who 
leave  immediately  prior  to  the  time  of  payment.  Here  is  a  month  ; 
— I  take  it  without  knowing  anything  about  it — in  that  month  there 
were  about  350  who  had  left  before  the  time  of  payment.  If  the 
gentlemen  would  like  to  see  this  book,  it  contains  simply  the  daily 
record  of  those  who  are  paid  before  the  regular  time  of  payment. 
You  will  notice  in  the  margin  of  the  pay-roll  dates  against  some  of 
the  names.  Those  represent  those  that  were  paid  before  the  time  of 
leaving. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.)  You  mean  that  they  were  paid  be¬ 
fore  they  left? 

A.  Yes ;  before  the  time  of  paying  the  roll.  I  have  brought 
with  me  this  pile  of  books  which  represents  the  books  which  we 
have  to  go  through  with  each  month  in  making  up  the  time  and  the 
amount  of  those  employed  simply  in  the  print  works.  This  con¬ 
tains  the  daily  time  and  work  of  each,  and  has  to  be  figured  up  and 
carried  into  the  pay-roll.  In  the  print  works  the  work  is  all  paid  by 
the  day  ;  there  is  no  piece  work.  These  books  contain  the  record  of 
each  man’s  time,  each  day,  which  has  to  be  footed  up  and  carried 
into  the  pay-roll. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Smith  of  West  Newbury.)  About  how  man}7  are 
employed  in  this  department? 

A.  I  think  there  are  in  the  vicinity  of  800.  I  take  the  mill  as  a 
whole,  and  I  don’t  always  classify  the  different  sections,  because  it 
is  not  paid  in  that  way.  These  papers  here  represent  the  books  and 
the  papers  which  are  required  each  month.  These  sheets  which  I  hold 
in  my  hand  contain  the  daily  record  of  the  product  of  each  loom  in 
the  cotton  mill ;  these  sheets  are  hung  up  in  the  room  and  the  oper¬ 
atives  have  access  to  them  each  da}7  to  compare  the  cloth  taken  off 
the  loom  with  the  amount  recorded  upon  these  sheets,  which  are 
called  cut-sheets.  They  are  the  record  of  the  pieces  taken  off,  or 
woven,  in  each  loom. 


27 


Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.  I  would  like  to  have  you  show  these  sheets 
to  the  gentlemen  of  the  committee. 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  have  enough,  almost,  to  give  each  one  a 
sheet.  Those  sheets  do  not  show  the  amount  of  work  by  any  means, 
because  they  simply  contain  the  number  of  pieces  taken  off  of  each 
loom.  There  is  nothinf  by  which  you  would  designate  that  the  cloth 
taken  off  was  not  all  the  same  as  regards  character,  quality  and 
price.  That  is  marked  here  in  a  wa}^  that  is  known  to  the  overseer 
or  to  the  one  who  has  the  matter  in  charge.  On  turning  over  the 
first  sheet  3’ou  will  fiud  a  summary — on  the  back  of  the  first  sheet — 
which  has  to  be  drawn  off  each  week,  showing  the  classification  of 
the  work  that  it  may  be  put  on  to  the  pay-roll  as  regards  the  price  to 
be  paid  for  doing  the  work. 

Q.  (  By  Mr.  Bennett. )  The  work  you  refer  to  here  is  piece  work  ? 

A.  That  is  piece  work  in  the  weave  room.  Now  as  regards  the 
carding  room  or  roping  room,  the  work  is  somewhat  the  same,  where 
the  work  is  done  b}^  the  piece.  Also  as  regards  the  spooling  and 
warping  of  the  3rarn.  That  is,  to  a  large  extent,  done  b}T  the  piece, 
and  that  has  to  be  kept  somewhat  in  the  same  way.  The  spinning 
of  the  yarn  is  also  the  same  so  far  as  the  mule  spinning  is  con¬ 
cerned.  We  can  give  you  an}T  amount  of  details  so  far  as  the  work 
is  concerned.  This  is,  simply  as  regards  the  cotton  mill.  Now  I 
have  got  something  more  that  may  interest  you.  So  far  I  have  only 
spoken  of  the  cotton  mill,  the  print  works,  and  the  simpler  portion 
of  the  mill.  I  come  now  to  something  which  has  still  more  detail  to 
it,  and  that  is,  our  worsted  department,  which  comprises  not  only  the 
manufacturing  but  the  dyeing  and  finishing.  It  is  equal  in  detail 
to  both  of  the  other  departments  of  which  I  have  spoken,  and  I  have 
here  simply  the  monthly  papers  required  in  making  up  the  monthly 
pay-roll. 

Q.  (B}’  Mr.  Smith  of  West  Newburj'.)  Do  these  columns  here 
represent  the  week’s  work  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  each  column  represents  a  day  and  the  total  of  that 
represents  a  week.  You  must  remember  that  these  numbers  here 
represent  the  looms  and  that  the  operative  will  run  all  the  way  from 
4  to  6  or  7  or  perhaps  8  looms  in  the  cotton  department  on  plain 
work.  Where  it  is  engine  work  or  jacquard  work,  of  course  they 
can’t  run  as  man}T. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Stratton.)  Do  }*ou  say  that  is  a  summary  of  the 
week’s  work? 

A.  This  is  a  summary  of  the  week’s  work,  if  you  would  like  to 
see  it.  (Another  book.)  This  book  which  I  hold  in  my  hand  repre¬ 
sents  the  time  book  of  the  repair  shop.  It  is  simply  a  monthly 
book,  and  represents  the  time  of  the  mechanics,  carpenters,  ma¬ 
chinists  and  laborers  that  work.  (Another  book.)  This  package 
of  books  represents  the  time  of  each  section  in  one  spinning  room. 


28 


There  are  in  the  vicinity  of  400  in  that  room,  and  these  books  each 
represent  the  time  of  each  section.  This  little  package  of  books 
(another  package)  represents  the  time  of  the  work  done  in  the  wool 
sorting  room.  These  figures  here  show  the  amount  of  wool 
sorted  by  each  of  the  different  hands  ;  there  are,  however,  different 
prices  for  each  of  the  different  classes  or  qualities  of  wool.  This 
little  package  of  books  (another  package)  represents  the  time  of  the 
dyeing  department  in  the  worsted  mill.  This  is  all  hour  work  or 
day  work.  This  is  the  packing  room,  which  is  all  da}^  work,  and 
this  is  the  wool  combing  and  drawing  room,  and  represents  the  time  ; 
that  being  done  by  time  or  by  the  machine  which  is  its  equivalent. 
This  little  package  (another  package)  represents  the  work  in  the 
dressing  room,  which  comprises  the  warping  and  spooling  ;  and  this, 
being  part  time  and  part  piece  work,  is  recorded  in  this  large  book. 
The  large  book  is  not  all  for  one  month,  but  has  to  be  used  for  each 
month.  This  book  (another  book)  represents  the  spinning  room, 
in  what  we  term  the  little  cotton  mill,  which  is  down  in  the  worsted 
department,  and  makes  the  yarn  to  go  into  the  worsted  cloth.  These 
two  books  (two  other  books)  represent  the  carding  in  the  little  cot¬ 
ton  mill  similar  to  this  spinning  room.  It  cards  the  cotton  for  this 
spinning  room.  And  this  being  part  time  and  part  piece  work  ne¬ 
cessitates  the  overhauling  of  these  books.  Now  I  have  come  to  a 
small  package  here  which  comprises  the  labor  of  simply  the  weav¬ 
ing  in  the  worsted  department  for  one  month,  similar  in  character  to 
those  papers  which  you  have  before  you,  but  comprising  very  much 
more  detail,  as  the  prices  are  very  numerous,  as  you  will  see.  If 
one  of  these  gentlemen  will  turn  to  the  latter  part  of  that  pay-roll — 
I  might  turn  to  it  for  you,  being  more  familiar  than  you  are,  I  can 
show  you  at  a  glance  what  I  mean — this  being  the  name  of  the  op¬ 
erative,  with  the  number  against  it  on  the  left  hand  side  of  the  page, 
you  will  notice  the  hours  which  are  put  here,  which  comprises  the 
hours  of  work  for  each  week  ;  and  in  connection  here  on  the  line 
corresponding  to  the  name  of  each  operative,  is  the  amount  of  cloth 
woven  by  that  operative  during  that  month,  put  under  the  price 
which  is  paid.  There  are  22  prices  on  that  page. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Bennett.)  Let  me  ask  }rou  one  question.  Is  it  first 
divided  into  weeks  ? 

A.  We  first  start  with  the  da}Ts,  sir. 

Q.  Then  it  is  compiled  and  made  up  into  weeks? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  Then  from  that  you  carry  it  out  into  months  ? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  Now,  you  speak  of  the  number  of  prices. 
Each  individual  does  not  do  work  at  so  many  prices? 

Mr.  Bennett.  There  are  not  over  five  for  any  one  operative. 

A.  They  will  get  sometimes  8,  9  or  10. 


29 


Q.  From  one  to  ten? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  judge  a  majority  will  run  from  one  to  five. 

Q.  An  average  of  four  or  five? 

A.  An  average  of  four  or  five  prices,  yes,  sir  ;  and  that  is  likely 
to  occur  each  week.  I  will  open  these  sheets  if  you  would  like  to 
see  them.  They  are  similar  in  character  to  what  you  have  there  ; 
only  it  is  quantity. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Bennett.)  If  I  understand,  you  employ  5,200  hands. 

A.  Yes,  sir,  a  good  deal  over  5,000  right  along. 

Q.  An  average  of  5,000? 

A.  It  would  be  more  than  5,000  on  each  pay-roll.  I  don’t 
know  of  a  pay-roll  that  has  run  under  5,000  and  I  have  known  them 
where  the}’  have  run  up  to  5,000  or  5,700  ;  perhaps  5,000  or  5,300 
would  be  an  average. 

Q.  How  long  does  it  take  to  make  up  your  monthly  pay-roll?  I 
mean  how  many  days? 

A.  We  seldom  get  these  books  out  of  the  mill  till  the  last  of  the 
week. 

Q,  Each  week? 

A.  No,  at  the  end  of  the  pay  time.  We  should  not  expect  to 
get  these  until — perhaps  we  might  get  one  Thursday  afternoon,  but 
Friday  or  Saturday  we  should  expect  them.  Sometimes  we  haven’t 
got  them  until  the  week  following.  There  is  so  much  detail  work 
upon  it,  and  care  is  necessary  to  avoid  mistakes,  that  it  requires  a 
good  deal  of  time,  and  it  is  work  which,  with  our  rooms  being  so 
large,  cannot  be  spread  over  a  great  number  of  people. 

Q.  Now,  how  much  time  do  you  consume  in  making  up  the  pay¬ 
roll?  How  many  days? 

A.  We  seldom  get  the  pay-roll  finished  until  Tuesday  or  Wednes¬ 
day  of  the  second  week  ;  that  is  eight  or  ten  days. 

Q.  Commencing  when? 

A.  Saturday. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Gunn.)  For  the  previous  month? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  for  the  previous  month. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Bennett.)  How  many  men  do  you  employ  to  make 
it  up? 

A.  That  is  a  question  that  'is  very  difficult  to  answer,  because 
these  books  up  to  a  certain  point  are  made  up  in  the  mill,  each  room 
making  up  its  own  books. 

Q.  They  are  being  made  up  each  day? 

A.  Each  week. 

Q.  Each  day,  are  they  not? 

A.  Well,  the  work  is  being  done. 

Q.  And  it  is  largely  made  up  at  the  end  of  the  week? 

A.  So  far  as  the  gross  amount  of  work  done  is  concerned,  it  is 
footed  up  each  week,  so  that  we  know  how  much  has  been  produced 
in  that  room. 


30 


Q.  And  it  is  also  classified? 

A.  It  is  classified  also. 

Q.  Here  is  a  sheet  here  with  180  looms  ;  at  the  end  of  the  week 
3’ou  know  just  what  has  been  done. 

A.  We  know  so  far  as  the  whole  room  is  concerned. 

Q.  It  is  really  made  up  once  a  week? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  the  end  of  the  month  you  put  the  four  weeks  together? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  four  or  five. 

Q.  Really,  you  first  get  it  into  weeks,  anyhow  ? 

A.  Certainly,  certainly  ;  but  let  me  state  right  here,  in  order  that 
you  may  understand  it,  the  aggregate  amount  of  work  done  each 
week  is  made  up  ;  at  the  end  of  the  month  lhat  work  has  to  be  di¬ 
vided  as  to  the  prices  to  be  paid  for  that  work,  and  that  is  different 
from  simple  totals. 

Q.  Well,  substantially  the  same? 

A.  No,  sir,  not  substantially  the  same,  because  it  is  very  differ¬ 
ent.  If  the  weaver  has  got  off  during  the  month  100  pieces  the  ag¬ 
gregate  is  100  pieces ;  if  the  weaver  is  to  be  paid  five  or  six  or  seven 
prices,  that  work  has  to  be  gone  through  and  classified  as  to  the 
character  of  the  work  done,  and  the  price  to  be  paid  for  doing  it, 
which  multiplies  the  work. 

Mr.  Bennett.  •  Certainly. 

Mr.  Anderson.  And  that  would  be  the  same  in  a  weekly  sj’stem 
of  pa^  ment  as  in  a  monthly  system  ? 

Q.  (By  Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.)  It  would  be  as  much  work? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  it  is  not  so  much  work  because  it  would  not  be  so 
many  kinds,  but  the  same  formula  of  work  would  have  to  be  gone 
through  week  b}r  week  as  is  now  gone  through  month  b}r  month,  with 
the  simple  exception  of  adding  the  different  weeks  together,  that 
would  be  all. 

Q.  Well,  Mr.  Senator  Bennett  was  asking  you  how  much  time 
it  took,  and  you  said  that  so  far  as  the  work  of  making  up  the  ac¬ 
counts  of  the  work  was  concerned,  it  would  be  very 'difficult  for  }rou 
to  estimate.  I  wish  to  follow  the  inquiry  of  Mr.  Bennett,  and  ask 
what  force  of  clerks  you  employ"? 

A.  From  the  time  the  pay-roll  is  closed,  that  is,  from  the  time 
that  we  call  “Pay  is  up,”  there  are  two  and  sometimes  three  at  work 
on  it  until  it  is  completed. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Bennett.)  Now,  give  us  in  days’  wTork,  as  near  as 
you  can,  the  amount  of  time ;  I  would  like  to  get  at  the  amount  of 
time. 

A.  You  mean  so  far  as  my  office  is  concerned  ? 

Q.  The  entire  labor. 

A.  Well,  that  is  what  I  told  you.  It  is  very  difficult  to  estimate 
the  amount  of  time  that  goes  into  the  making  up  of  a  pay-roll. 


31 


Q.  (By  Mr.  Stratton.)  Do  you  keep  a  clerk  specially  in  each 
room  ? 

A.  No,  not  specially  ;  in  some  rooms  the  overseers  make  up  the 
time,  and  in  one  department  there  is  a  clerk  who  has  the  carding, 
spinning  and  dressing,  which  comprises  five  rooms.  So  far  as  the 
weaving  room  is  concerned,  there  is  a  clerk  for  each  room  And 
from  the  weaving  room,  as  I  told  you,  these  books  do  not  get  around 
to  us  for  nearly  a  week  after  the  pay  time  is  up.  The  time  books 
have  simply  the  time  each  day,  and  these  are  carried  into  my  office 
and  carried  on  to  the  pay-roll,  and  everything  is  done  there.  Where  it 
is  piece  work  it  is  simply  done  in  the  room,  and  we  simply  get  the 
results  which  we  have  to  figure  up  in  the  office  ;  so  that  it  is  diffi¬ 
cult  for  me  to  tell  how  much  time  is  taken  up,  because  the  overseers 
and  clerks,  so  far  as  there  are  an}T  clerks,  work  many  times  late  into 
the  night  in  order  to  get  the  sheets  out  to  us  ;  and  then  when  they 
get  into  the  office  they  have  to  be  gone  all  over  and  examined,  and 
the  detail  of  the  office  attended  to  so  far  as  discharges  have  been 
made  or  operatives  have  left  and  have  been  paid. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Stratton.)  Well,  your  overseers  keep  an  account 
every  day  of  the  operatives  and  of  the  work  they  do  ? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  indeed. 

Q.  Do  they  return  that  once  a  month,  or  once  a  week,  or  every 
day? 

A.  They  give  that  once  a  month. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  Well,  the  majority  of  your  work  is  day 
work  or  hour  work,  as  near  as  I  can  judge  by  looking  over  these 
bills.  Three-quarters  of  it  is  hour  work? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  should  think  fully  one-half  of  the  work  was  piece 
work.  You  will  see  the  piece  work  on  the  left  hand  ;  it  does  not 
show  upon  the  right. 

Q.  If  it  is  made  out  a  certain  price  per  hour,  that  would  indicate 
that  it  was  hour  work  ? 

A.  Not  necessarily,  because  an  operative  may  work  part  by  the 
hour  and  part  b}7  the  piece.  1  should  think  fully  one-half  was  upon 
piece  work.  Running  over  the  pages  would  not  assist  you  in  de¬ 
termining  ;  it  might  mislead  you.  I  speak  from  practical  experience 
in  that  matter  ;  it  is  not  a  matter  of  guess  work. 

Mr.  Russell.  Well,  a  book  is  pretty  practical  evidence. 

Q.  (By  the  chairman.)  There  seems  to  be  a  great  deal  of  work 
in  making  up  the  pay-roll.  I  suppose  you  have  made  some  effort  to 
simplify  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  we  have  made  a  good  deal  of  effort  to  simplify  it, 
and  I  can  assure  you  that  we  do  no  work  for  the  sake  of  doing 
work ;  there  is  plenty  of  work  to  be  done  without  multiplying  it. 
The  great  matter  is  all  the  time  to  see  how  the  work  can  be  sim¬ 
plified  and  at  the  same  time  correctly  kept.  The  matter  of  correct- 


32 


ness  has  as  much  to  do  with  it  as  the  matter  of  simple  manual  labor. 
It  is  hardly  a  question  of  a  little  extra  work — that  does  not  signify 
so  much  as  the  matter  of  correctness. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Stratton.)  You  pay  your  operatives  by  the  month? 

A.  We  pay  them  every  month  ;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  I  understand  you  to  mean  by  a  month ;  I  want  you 
to  define  what  you  constitute  a  month  ? 

A.  I  say  we  pay  them  ever}’ month.  Our  month  ends  the  last 
Saturday  of  each  month.  We  pay  them  twelve  times  a  year. 

Q.  I  notice  here  Sarah  Young,  300  hours,  128  pieces  at  36  cents 
a  piece.  The  number  of  hours,  1  presume,  you  keep  for  some  rea¬ 
son  of  your  own  ;  now,  if  you  pay  by  the  month  I  only  wanted  to 
know  how  you  got  in  300  working  hours  in  a  month  for  that  lady. 

A.  That  happens  to  be  five  weeks.  You  cannot  pay  twelve 
times  a  year  and  pay  every  four  weesk. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Smith  of  West  Newbury.)  How  many  hours  do  you 
reckon  for  a  month  ? 

A.  Four  weeks  is  240  hours,  and  5  weeks  is  300  hours. 

Q*  And  this  was  for  five  weeks  ? 

A.  That  was  for  five  weeks. 

Q.  There  is  one  for  282  hours,  and  there  are  several  for  300 
hours  ;  that  means  a  little  more  than  a  month,  I  suppose  ? 

A.  That  is  what  I  say  ;  there  will  be  four  times  in  a  year  when 
they  will  be  paid  for  five  weeks  ;  you  cannot  avoid  that  in  paying 
monthly. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  You  do  that  because  it  is  easier  to  get  at 
a  weekly  account? 

A.  It  fixes  the  time  and  makes  the  month  come  regularly  ;  the 
operatives  all  understand  it,  and  the  time  is  not  changeable  as  it 
would  be  if  we  paid  every  four  weeks. 

Q.  Excuse  me,  but  isn’t  that  paying  by  the  week?  Your  sys¬ 
tem  is  a  weekly  not  a  monthly  system  ? 

A.  No,  it  is  a  monthly  system  ;  we  pay  every  month. 

Q.  No,  it  is  only  once  in  a  great  many  months  that  you  pay  to 
the  end  of  the  month. 

A.  If  the  last  Saturday  of  a  month  happens  to  be  the  30th  or  the 
31st,  then  we  pay  to  the  end  of  the  month. 

Mr.  Russell.  That  is  very  seldom. 

Mr.  Stratton.  He  says  he  pays  once  a  month,  and  then  he  says 
he  pays  for  five  weeks  in  a  month ;  that  is  not  a  month,  is  it? 

Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.  Yes,  it  is  ;  in  the  month  of  March. 

Mr.  Stratton.  They  figure  their  books  by  the  week,  and  make 
their  payments  once  in  four  weeks  or  five  weeks  ;  that  is  all  the  point 
I  wanted  to  make. 

Mr.  Anderson.  We  pay  12  times  a  year,  and  so  far  as  time  is 
concerned,  it  ends  the  last  Saturday  in  the  month? 


33 


Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  You  call  that  your  month? 

A.  It  is  not  the  calendar  month. 

Mr.  Rdssell.  There  is  no  need  of  any  misunderstanding.  It  is 
a  question  of  four  or  five  weekly  payments  with  you. 

Q.  Mr.  Stratton.)  Is  it  a  question  of  monthly  payments, 

or  is  it  a  question  of  weekly  payments? 

Mr.  Russell.  That  is  what  I  asked. 

A.  You  can  have  it  to  suit  yourselves  as  fir  as  that  is  concerned. 
It  is  simply  a  matter  of  words  ;  I  say  we  pa}T  once  a  month,  or  12 
times  a  year,  and  the  month  ends,  as  a  matter  of  convenience,  on 
even  weeks,  the  last  Saturday  of  the  month. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Smith  of  West  Newbury.)  This  system  of  accounts 
is  founded  on  a  weekly  account,  isn’t  it? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  (B}'  Mr.  Russell.)  You  say  “the”  month.  Will  you  tell  me 
what  month  it  is  that  has  five  weeks  in  it? 

A.  It  is  the  month  where  from  the  last  Saturday  of  the  previous 
month  to  the  last  Saturday  of  the  present  month  ther  e  will  be  five 
Saturdays. 

Q.  Then  you  establish  another  month,  which  is  composed  of 
parts  of  two  months,  do  you  not? 

A.  I  don’t  exactly  understand  the  meaning  of  }Tour  question. 

Q.  You  establish  a  month  which  is  composed  of  two  calendar 
months,  do  you  not? 

A.  Sometimes  it  is,  and  sometimes  it  is  not.  I  tell  you  that  our 
month  ends  the  last  Saturda}7'. 

Mr.  Russell.  If  you  call  it  “our  month”  that  is  all  right. 

Mr.  Anderson.  Well,  the  mill  month  as  is  usual  in  all  mills — 
you  could  call  it  Wednesday  or  an\T  other  day,  but  for  convenience 
of  reckoning  Saturday  is  taken,  and  the  last  Saturday  of  the  month 
ends  the  month  so  far  as  reckoning  is  concerned. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  Now,  through  all  this  part  of  the  book, 
apparently  more  than  half,  I  find  very  little,  if  any,  piece  work. 

A.  Well,  it  is  there. 

Q.  Now,  the  day  work  is  carried  out  so  mail}”  hours  at  7J,  8,  10, 
14  cents  an  hour. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  in  your  judgment,  is  that  the  simplest  form  of  work  in 
accounting  that  3Tou  can  make  out? 

A.  Well,  is  that  a  fair  question?  I  am  perfectly  willing  to  an¬ 
swer  any  question,  but  that  is  a  matter  of  opinion  entirely. 

Q.  1  wish  to  get  at  your  opinion  as  an  expert.  It  is  just  what 
we  are  sitting  here  for. 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  should  say,  most  decided^,  that  it  is.  Our  time 
is  kept  by  the  hour,  and  it  is  as  good  a  system  as  could  be. 

Q.  Then,  passing  from  that  to  the  piece  work,  I  find  here — there 
is  not  so  much  as  I  thought  there  was — 


34 


A.  Well,  it  is  there. 

Q.  Here  is  21  at  24  cents,  and  26  at  24  cents,  and  it  is  carried 
out  as  a  month’s  work  ;  now,  that  is  not  very  intricate  work. 

A.  No,  it  is  not. 

Q.  A  good  bookkeeper  could  make  pretty  rapid  work  at  that? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  another  point ;  this  book,  at  the  end  of  the  month,  goes 
into  the  different  rooms  to  be  made  up  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  it  comes  out. 

Q.  This  book  ;  not  the  amount? 

A.  Not  entirely  ;  some  part  of  it  is  done  in  my  office. 

Q.  A  gentleman  told  me  that  this  book  was  made  out  in  a  differ¬ 
ent  room  and  never  wTent  into  the  office.  I  didn’t  know  how  it  was 
made,  but  he  kindly  came  round  and  told  me  that  this  book  went  out 
into  the  different  rooms  to  be  made  up. 

A.  Part  of  that  book  is  made  up  in  the  rooms,  and  part  of  it  is 
made  up  in  my  office  ;  after  the  sheets  come  into  my  office  they  don’t 
go  back  into  the  mill  again. 

Q.  Whj"  I  asked  the  question  is  this  :  You  say  it  takes  several 
days  to  get  returns  from  the  different  rooms  ;  now,  1  thought  if  this 
book  had  to  go  into  a  certain  room  and  remain  there  until  the  work 
was  carried  on  to  the  books,  and  was  then  passed  from  that  room 
to  another  and  remained  there,  that  accounted  for  the  long  time  re¬ 
quired  in  making  up  the  pay-roll. 

A.  That  would  cause  delaj'  and  trouble,  but  nothing  of  that  sort 
is  done.  This  book  is  simply  bound  after  the  pay-roll  is  finished. 
It  is  all  in  sheets.  This  first  part  of  the  pay-roll  is  all  in  one  hand¬ 
writing,  and  that  is  done  in  my  office. 

Q.  (By  the  Chairman.)  From  the  time  the  books  are  received 
from  the  mill,  how  long  a  time  and  how  many  clerks  are  employed 
in  making  up  the  pay-roll  ? 

A.  From  two  to  three  are  employed  a  little  over  a  week. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  O’Sullivan.)  After  it  leaves  the  room? 

A.  After  it  leaves  the  room. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Bennett.)  In  other  words,  it  takes  about  18  days’ 
time  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  outside  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  From  15  to  18  days  is  consumed  by  making  up  your  pay-roll? 
Now  provided  you  made  up  this  pay-roll  once  a  week,  how  much 
time  would  it  require  to  make  up  the  pay-roll  ? 

A.  So  far  as  the  time  is  concerned,  it  would  not  require  quite  as 
much.  It  would  not  require  quite  as  much  time  to  makeup  the  pay¬ 
roll  each  week  as  it  requires  to  make  it  up  each  month. 

Q.  You  mean  four  times  as  much? 


35 


A.  Let  me  be  understood.  To  make  up  the  pay-roll  in  one  week 
for  one  week,  would  not  require  as  much  work  as  it  does  to  make  up 
the  pay-roll  for  the  entire  month. 

Q.  Proportionately? 

A.  No,  sir.  It  would  not  require  as  much  work ;  it  would  be 
less  work. 

Q.  Well,  how  much  less? 

A.  Well,  I  should  say  from  a  half  to  two-thirds. 

Mr.  Anderson.  Mr.  Bennett,  that  you  may  understand  what  I 
mean,  I  am  taking  one  week,  and  I  am  taking  one  month  on  our 
pay-roll.  I  am  not  taking  four  times  a  month,  but  simply  one  week 
and  the  time  it  would  take  to  make  up  the  pay-roll ;  one  week  as 
compared  with  the  labor  required  for  making  up  one  pay-roll  as  now, 
a  mouth  ;  and  I  say  that  for  making  up  one  pay-roll  at  the  end  of 
the  week,  simply  making  up  the  pay-roll,  would  require,  in  my  opin¬ 
ion,  from  one-half  to  two-thirds  as  much  labor  as  is  required  now 
for  making  up  the  pay-roll  at  the  end  of  the  month. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Bennett.)  It  don’t  seem  to  me  possible  when  this 
is  all  sent  in  practically  to  your  office. 

A.  No,  this  don’t  come  into  the  office ;  these  are  kept  in 
the  weave  rooms. 

Q.  Well,  the}’  might  as  well  be  ;  they  are  made  up  weekly. 

A.  Mr.  Bennett,  please  understand — and  I  thought  I  was  under¬ 
stood — the  numbers  there  represent  simply  the  number  of  the  loom, 
— each  loom.  This  is  the  product  of  each  loom.  Now,  a  person 
working  in  a  room  may  work  two,  three,  four,  five,  six,  or  more, 
looms,  and  there  is  nothing  on  that  sheet  which  shows  who  is  run¬ 
ning  that  loom  ;  it  is  simply  the  loom  product ;  in  order  to  get  at  the 
amount  of  work  done  by  the  individual,  the  overseer  must  take  that 
sheet  and  draw  it  off  against  the  individual’s  name,  and  give  the  in¬ 
dividual  the  total  amount  of  work  for  the  total  number  of  looms  the 
individual  is  running. 

Q.  Then  your  idea  is  that  if  it  takes  from  15  to  18  days’  time 
to  make  up  your  pay-roll  monthly,  if  it  were  made  up  weekly  it 
would  take  about  twice  as  many  days  ? 

A.  Well,  two  or  three  times  as  many. 

Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.  Twice  or  twice  and  a  half  as  many. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Bennett.)  Which  would  be  from  30  to  36  days? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  that  would  be  it. 

Q.  And  It  would  cost  that  amount  of  money  more  for  your  large 
corporation  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  simply  the  making  up  of  the  pay-roll.  Of  course 
the  next  thing  would  be  the  handling  of  the  money. 

Q.  That  could  not  be  very  considerable. 

Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.  How  long  does  it  take  you  to  pay  off? 

Mr.  Anperson.  Before  I  went  to  the  Pacific  mill  I  was  an  exam- 


36 


iner  of  mills,  going  from  one  mill  to  another,  and  I  thought  I  knew 
something  about  them,  from  going  into  them  year  after  year,  but  I 
found  that  there  was  a  good  deal  more  than  I  had  any  idea  about. 

Q.  Now,  just  how  many  men  do  you  employ  in  paying  off? 

A.  In  just  handling  the  money  ?  I  pay  every  operative  employed 
by  the  Pacific  mills. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Bennett.)  How  much  time  do  you  consume  in  pay- 
ing  off? 

A.  Well,  sir,  in  actual  time  in  paying  off  it  takes  from  eight  to 
nine  hours. 

Q.  Then,  if  you  paid  off  four  times  a  month,  it  would  take  you — 

A.  Eight  or  nine  hours  every  single  time  and  more  ;  I  say  more, 
and  I  speak  from  experience. 

Q.  About  forty  hours’  time,  if  you  paid  weekly7? 

A.  Well,  that  is  hardly  fair ;  I  said  I  did  it  in  8  or  9  hours. 

Q.  I  am  giving  you  from  one  to  two  hours  extra  each  week. 

A.  Yes,  sir,  but  I  say  more  ;  I  can  pay  very  rapidly  at  the  first 
of  the  pay,  but  during  the  last  of  it  I  can’t  pay  so  fast.  The  money 
is  put  up  in  the  office  in  these  envelopes,  which  I  have  brought  here 
and  would  like  to  show  to  y'ou.  I  told  the  clerk  to  copy  just  one 
page  of  the  pay-roll,  and  here  are  the  envelopes  that  we  put  the 
money  up  in.  I  take  these  envelopes  in  trunks  into  the  mill  with  the 
money  due  to  the  operatives.  The  operative  hands  me  a  pay  bill, 
such  as  I  showed  you  here,  and  in  exchange  for  it  he  gets  the  en¬ 
velope  having  the  money  due  him. 

Q.  Now,  if  I  understand  y7ou,  if  you  were  to  pay7  off  once  a 
week  in  place  of  once  a  month,  it  would  cost  yTour  factory7  or  corpo¬ 
ration  18  days  at  the  outside  in  making  up  the  pay-roll,  and  three 
days’  time  in  prying  off ;  so  that  2 1  days’  labor  would  be  the  extreme 
figure.  I  am  only  taking  your  own  system. 

A.  Well,  the  money  has  to  be  put  up  in  the  envelopes,  and  it 
takes  a  good  deal  of  time. 

Q.  Well,  you  didn’t  include  that  part? 

A.  No,  sir.  In  handling  the  money  it  is  three  good,  solid,  tire¬ 
some  days’  work  to  count  that  money  and  put  it  into  the  envelopes, 
for  one  man  to  count  it,  and  another  to  verify  it. 

Q.  That  would  add  nine  day's  more? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  twelve  ;  it  would  take  three  days  to  put  the  money 
up,  and  it  takes  eight  or  nine  hours  to  pay  it  out. 

Q.  Well,  then,  call  it  twelve  ;  that  would  be  33  days? 

A.  Twelve  and  3  are  fifteen ;  3  days  to  count  it  out,  and  eight  or 
nine  hours  to  pay  it  out,  and  there  is  not  any  man  that  can  follow 
that  weekly. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  it  is  any  more  fatiguing  than  for  a  man 
to  handle  money7  at  a  railroad  station  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  it  is  more  fatiguing  than  to  handle  money'  at  a  rail- 


37 


road  station,  because  there  are  no  breaks  at  all ;  I  sit  down  in  the 
morning  to  count  mone}',  and  I  count  money  right  straight  along 
until  it  comes  night,  and  there  is  not  a  break.  It  is  very  close  figur¬ 
ing  right  along ;  more  so  than  a  railroad  station,  because  the  amounts 
are  to  a  point,  and  in  the  case  of  the  railroad  station  the  amounts 
are  on  the  decimals  ;  it  makes  a  very  material  difference. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Gunn.;  Do  you  take  receipts  from  the  operatives? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  do  they  get  the  pay-bills? 

A.  Those  are  given  them  by  the  overseers  before  I  come  around  ; 
sometimes  in  the  morning  and  sometimes  two  or  three  days  ahead  ; 
giving  the  operatives  an  opportunity  for  seeing  that  the  amount  for 
which  they  are  to  receive  their  pay  does  not  accord  with  their  ac¬ 
count  or  tally  as  they  have  kept  it,  and  the  matter  is  reconciled 
before  they  are  paid.  Speaking  of  this  matter  of  putting  up  money 
and  paying  out  mone}',  3-011  cannot  alwa}’s  multipl}'  the  amount  b}’ 
the  time  ;  that  is,  a  certain  amount  of  work  done  in  a  given  amount 
of  time,  you  cannot  do  four,  five,  six  or  seven  times  the  amount  of 
that  work  in  the  same  amount  of  increased  time. 

Q.  Now,  }tou  know  something  of  the  Lowell  corporation,  at 
Lowell,  I  suppose? 

A.  Oh,  3’es,  sir. 

Q.  Is  3’our  system  of  manufacturing  more  complicated  than  the 
manufacture  of  carpets  ? 

A.  Well,  sir,  I  don’t  know  about  the  manufacture  of  carpets. 

Q.  How  often  do  the  Lowell  carpet  mills  pa3? 

A.  The3~  pa3T  once  a  fortnight. 

Q.  What  I  want  to  know  is  whether  the3T  have  any  difficulty  in 
making  up  their  pay-roll,  or  in  paying  once  a  fortnight,  more  than 
the3r  formerly  did  ? 

A.  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  (B3’  Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.)  Mr.  Bennett,  it  has  been  suggested 
to  me  that  it  was  desirable  to  know,  and  perhaps  you  asked,  how 
many  varieties  of  work  3’ou  pay  for  as  piece  work  ? 

A.  Well,  sir,  in  the  cotton  mill  I  should  think  there  were  100, 
but  in  the  woolen  mill  it  is  so  very  varied  that  L  could  not  form  any 
conception  ;  I  onh'  know  that  I  have  found  on  one  page  of  the  pay¬ 
roll  40  prices. 

Q.  All  different  kinds  of  work? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  prices  simply,  and  that  does  not  give,  b}T  any  means, 
the  kind  of  work,  because  there  may  be  two,  three,  five,  20,  50 
kinds  for  the  same  price. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  That  preliminary  work  is  done  by  the 
overseers,  isn’t  it ;  the  setting  down  of  the  kind  of  work  and  the 
price  is  done  by  the  overseers,  isn’t  it? 

A.  It  is  done  under  the  supervision  of  the  overseers.  Our  work 


38 


is  changing  all  the  time.  To-day  we  may7  have  orders  to  change 
over  a  lot  of  looms  that  may*  carry  with  them  20  or  30  different  kinds 
or  styles  of  goods,  but  it  may  not  carry  more  than  two  or  three 
prices.  It  may  cover  20  different  kinds  of  work. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  How  is  it  that  it  is  practically  a  different 
kind  of  work  when  it  is  so  many  3'ards  at  such  a  price  ?  What  has 
style  to  do  about  it,  when  it  is  simply  a  certain  price  for  so  much 
cloth  ? 

A.  Well,  sir,  the  work  has  all  to  be  kept  separate,  and  we  have 
to  take  each  style  and  keep  that  separate,  and  work  that  up  and  ag¬ 
gregate  i  he  pay. 

<4.  That  is  preliminary  work  which  the  paymaster  has  nothing  to 
do  with. 

A.  The  paymaster  has  nothing  to  do  with  it,  though  it  has  di¬ 
rectly  a  bearing  on  the  amount  of  work  that  has  to  be  done. 

Q.  Can  you  go  to  an  overseer  aud  find  out  at  any  moment  how  a 
person’s  work  stands? 

A.  I  can  find  out  what  it  is  at  present,  by  taking  time  for  it. 

Q.  I  see  y*ou  state  that  you  take  out  deductions  for  rent,  and  so 
I  suppose  you  don’t  have  any  connection  with  any  grocery7  store? 

A.  No,  sir,  we  haven’t  any  connection  with  any  grocery’  store  ; 
not  even  an  assignment.  In  the  whole  city  there  is  not  an  assign¬ 
ment  that  is  binding  on  the  Pacific  mill.  I  am  free  to  pay  every 
single  dollar  that  is  due  to  every  operative  without  regard  to  grocery’ 
stores  or  any’  others. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.)  Arey’ou  free  from  the  law  of  trustee 
process,  too? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  would  say  we  have  very  few  trustees,  and  a  year  or 
two  ago  I  had  the  figures  here  that  I  made  up  about  this  matter  of 
trustees,  and  it  is  even  less  now  than  it  used  to  be.  I  have  a  sys¬ 
tem  by  which,  if  a  trustee  is  sent,  I  fill  out  a  blank  and  send  it  di¬ 
rectly’  to  the  operative,  giving  the  name  of  the  party’  and  also  of  the 
lawyer  bringing  or  serving  the  writ.  I  find  that  it  has  obviated 
almost  entirely  the  trouble  that  formerly’  arose  from  this  matter  of 
trustees.  In  the  last  three  or  four  months  1  don’t  remember  but  one 
writ  that  was  entered  in  court. 

Q.  (By7  Mr.  Smith  of  West  Newbury’.)  If  an  operative  should 
assign  his  wages  would  y  ou  honor  it? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  your  rule  is  not  to  pay*  them  ? 

A.  My  rule  is  to  pay’  the  operative.  The  operative  is  the  one  I 
look  to ;  the  operative  is  the  one  I  am  working  for,  and  it  is  not  the 
store  people. 

Q.  The  operative  can  make  an  assignment  if  he  wants  to? 

A.  Yes,  many  of  them  do  assign  their  pay’,  but  that  is  a  matter 
between  themselves  and  their  store-keeper. 


a9 


Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  Do  you  discharge  an  operative  who  as¬ 
signs  his  wages? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Smith  of  West  Newbury.)  I  suppose  it  is  because 
they  understand  you  will  not  take  any  notice  of  them  ? 

A.  If  they  come  in,  I  tell  them  it  is  their  legal  right  to  have  that 
assignment,  and  it  is  the  operative’s  legal  right  to  make  it ;  and  it  is 
my  legal  right  to  break  that  assignment,  which  I  will  do  with  the 
greatest  pleasure,  and  I  do  it. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  Can  you  tell  us  how  you  do  it? 

A.  1  send  word  to  the  overseer  to  discharge  that  person  for  the 
sake  of  breaking  that  assignment  and  to  hire  him  in  again  at  once. 
That  is,  to  discharge  him  as  he  goes  out  to  dinner,  and  to  hire  him 
as  he  comes  in  from  dinner. 

Q.  Do  the}’  always  hire  him  over  again  ? 

A.  I  never  knew  of  an  instance  where  the  discharge  was  for  that 
purpose  where  they  didn’t  hire  him  over  again  ;  the  overseers  under¬ 
stand  it  perfectly. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Smith  of  West  Newbury. )  I  have  heard  it  said  that 
if  an  operative  assigned  his  wages  he  was  discharged. 

A.  Well,  I  say  no ;  but  at  the  same  time,  the  assignment  is 
broken,  and  I  think  that  you  lawyers  will  admit  that  a  discharge  of 
that  kind  will  break  an  assignment. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Gunn.)  I  would  like  to  know  if  your  operatives 
are  content  under  the  present  system  of  payment?  Or  whether  they 
desire  more  frequent  payment? 

A.  Well,  sir,  I  suppose  there  is  no  one  who  has  a  better  oppor¬ 
tunity  of  getting  at  that  than  I  do,  and  I  say  so  somewhat  modestly 
— I  say  it  because  it  is  a  matter  that  I  have  honestly  tried  to  get  at. 
My  belief  is  that  what  is  for  the  welfare  of  the  operative  is  for  the 
welfare  of  the  corporation. 

Mr.  Smith  of  West  Newbury.  I  agree  with  you  there,  sir. 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  have  their  entire  confidence  and  they  believe 
that  I  am  a  friend  of  the  people,  the  working  people  there  in  our 
mill.  It  is  something  that  I  have  labored  to  attain,  and  it  is  some¬ 
thing  that  I  feel  very  happy  in  believing  to  be  a  fact.  There  are 
cases  where  some  of  the  people  would  like  to  receive  their  pay  more 
frequently,  but  I  state  it  here,  gentlemen,  believing  it  fully,  that  a 
very,  very,  very  large  proportion  of  our  people  are  satisfied  with  the 
present  arrangement. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Smith  of  West  Newbury.)  I  suppose  if  an  opera¬ 
tive  wished  for  his  pay  once  a  week  or  once  a  fortnight  as  an  ex¬ 
ceptional  case,  you  might  pay  him,  if  he  found  himself  in  a  tight 
place  and  wanted  some  money? 

A.  Well,  that  is  a  matter  personal;  I  have  a  great  deal  of  lati¬ 
tude  given  to  me,  and  there  have  been  cases  where  operatives  have 


40 


been  in  trouble,  where  they  have  had  sickness  or  some  disaster  has 
overtaken  them,  and  I  have  paid  them  theii  wages.  I  have,  in  cer¬ 
tain  cases,  paid  them  their  wages  in  advance.  That  is  a  matter  en¬ 
tirely  personal,  and  I  say  1  have  latitude  in  the  matter. 

Q.  You  do  that  on  your  own  responsibility? 

A.  I  do  it  because  I  believe  1  have  a  right  to  do  it. 

Q.  It  is  simply  a  matter  between  you  and  the  operatives? 

A.  Wherever  the  case  comes  certified  to  me  by  an  overseer, 
that  the  operatives  should  have  their  money  due  them,  I  pay  it. 

Q.  You  do  it  on  your  own  responsibility? 

A.  I  do  it  because  I  believe  I  have  a  right  to  do  it. 

Q.  It  is  simply  on  your  own  responsibility  and  not  a  rule  of  the 
mill  ? 

A.  No,  it  is  on  my  own  responsibility,  doing  what  I  believe  to  be 
an  act  of  justice  for  the  operatives  and  for  the  welfare  of  all  con¬ 
cerned. 

Q  (By  Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.)  Whether  you  think  you  have  lati¬ 
tude  enough,  discretion  enough,  so  that  the  directors  would  pay  you 
the  money  in  case  he  ran  away  or  died  ? 

A.  I  have  no  doubt  of  it. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Sargent.)  Yrou  always  pay  every  time-bill  that  is 
presented  to  you  ? 

A.  Every  time-bill  has  been  paid  that  has  been  brought  into  the 
office  up  to  the  present  time. 

Q.  Then  the  overseer  has  some  discretion  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  O’Sullivan.)  Did  you  find  time  to  read  the  letter 
published  in  the  “Journal”  from  Mr.  Wainwright  of  the  Arlington 
mills  ? 

A.  I  did. 

Q.  Could  you  give  the  committee  your  opinion  about  it,  in  re¬ 
gard  to  the  practicability,  or  what  you  think  about  it  as  applied  to 
your  corporation  ? 

A.  I  say  that  Mr.  Wainwright  is  not  competent  to  decide  a  ques¬ 
tion  or  express  an  opinion  which  is  of  any  very  great  value  in  regard 
to  the  Pacific  mills. 

Q.  They  pay  something  like  2,000  people  at  the  Arlington? 

A.  They  have  two  paymasters  to  two  mills.  The  worsted  mill 
have  on  their  books, — we  will  give  them  their  figures, — somewhere 
in  the  vicinity  of  1,400.  They  pay  weekly.  They  pay  every  Friday 
for  the  preceding  week.  The  week  ends  on  Saturday  and  they  pay 
the  following  Frida}*.  And,  as  I  have  said,  you  can  get  a  man  to  run 
half  a  mile  in  a  certain  time,  but  lie  can’t  run  five  miles  and  keep 
that  up.  Why,  just  think  of  it ;  putting  up  money  and  paying  it 
out  for  5,000  people,  carries  my  hand  in  the  motions  over  10  miles 
every  month.  By  the  weekly  system  it  has  got  to  be  done  every 


41 


week.  There  is  a  certain  amount  of  headwork  and  handwork  which 
can  be  done  up  to  a  certain  point,  but  cannot  be  multiplied. 

Mr.  O’Sullivan.  I  would  cheerfully  give  assent  to  what  Mr. 
Anderson  has  said  about  his  obtaining  the  good  wishes  of  the  opera¬ 
tives  and  trying  to  subserve  the  best  interests  of  his  help.  That  is 
a  fact.  But  you  see,  Mr.  Anderson,  that  I  flatter  our  State  on  hav¬ 
ing  a  superior  quality  of  operatives,  and  you  possess  your  share  of 
that  class.  Don’t  you  think  it  is  more  universal  than  you  state  to 
the  committee,  this  desire  for  more  frequeut  payments  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Honestly — I  don’t  question  your  honesty — but  has  your  ob¬ 
servation  led  you  so  far  that  you  can  say,  actually  not? 

A.  I  say  not,  not  from  an}’  opinion,  but  from  the  actual  expres¬ 
sions  of  opinion  to  me  by  the  operatives.  As  I  see  them  in  and 
around  the  rooms,  as  I  see  them  in  and  out  of  the  mill,  I  have  asked 
a  great  many  of  them,  and  they  don’t  want  it. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.)  Let  me  ask  you  a  question  upon 
this  point.  It  is  rather  against  our  side  perhaps,  but  whether  the 
people  who  came  to  you  to  express  their  views  on  this  subject  were 
acquainted  with  your  opinion  so  that  they  would  be  likely  to  ex¬ 
press  their  opinion  against  monthly  payments  rather  than  in  favor 
of  them,  and  in  favor  of  weekly  payments,  because  they  know  how 
you  feel  about  it  ? 

A.  In  talking  with  the  operatives  many  and  many  a  time,  I  have 
talked  in  favor  of  weekly  payments  with  a  view  to  drawing  them  out 
and  trying  to  get  at  the  true  inwardness  of  their  opinion,  and  I  think 
that  in  view  of  that  conversation  I  am  fully  warranted  in  expressing 
my  firm  belief  from  actual  contact  with  the  operatives  and  knowing 
fully  what  I  am  talking  about,  that  the  statement  is  true  which  I 
made,  that  a  very,  very  large  majority  of  our  operatives  do  not  want 
more  frequent  payments. 

Mr.  O'Sullivan.  The  reason  that  I  repeated  that  question  was 
that  it  seems  very  problematical  to  me,  knowing  from  the  reputation 
that  Mr.  Anderson  bears,  that  it  would  not  be  looked  at  in  the  light 
of  intimidating  or  bulldozing  them,  how  these  very  people  who,  he 
6tates,  express  that  desire  to  him,  or  not  a  desire  for  more  frequent 
payments  to  me  and  to  others  who  have  for  a  long  time  inquired  of 
them,  should  express  just  the  opposite  opinion. 

Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.  The}7  are  afraid  of  you  and  they  are  not 
afraid  of  Anderson. 

Mr.  O’Sullivan.  Not  in  my  district  at  all. 

Mr.  Anderson.  No,  Mr.  Smith,  that  is  not  it.  But  they  know 
what  Mr.  O’Sullivan’s  opinions  on  that  question  are,  and  they  know 
what  he  wants  to  get  at ;  he  meets  more  of  that  class  of  people,  and 
does  not  meet  the  other  class  as  I  do.  I  suppose  I  meet  more  opera¬ 
tives,  and  I  know  I  meet  with  more  of  the  traders  in  Lawrence  than 


42 


perhaps  any  other  paymaster,  or  all  the  other  paymasters  put  to¬ 
gether. 

Mr.  O’Sullivan.  Or  any  other  man  or  all  of  them  put  together. 
I  will  put  it  as  far  as  that. 

Mr.  Anderson.  Starting  out  with  my  idea,  that  what  is  for  the 
welfare  of  the  operatives  is  for  the  welfare  of  the  corporation.  I 
have  gone  to  work  honestly  upon  that  basis.  If  it  is  for  the  benefit 
of  the  operatives,  let  us  have  it ;  if  it  is  not  going  to  benefit  them 
any,  what  is  the  use  of  legislating?  If  it  is  not  for  their  benefit  for 
God’s  sake  don’t  legislate.  Now,  from  what  I  have  learned  from 
meeting  with  the  operatives  you  have  got  my7  opinion.  On  meeting 
with  the  trade  I  have  taken  pains  for  several  years  to  ask  those  that 
I  have  met  when  they  came  into  the  office,  what  would  be  the  effect 
of  weekly  payments,  as  carried  on  at  the  Arlington  mills ;  and  I 
think,  if  I  should  let  some  of  the  traders  have  lull  scope,  the  air 
would  be  blue  in  the  office  when  they7  have  told  me  of  the  amount  of 
money  they-  have  lost  from  operatives  working  at  the  Arlington  mills 
who  receive  their  pay  weekly.  You  know  Mr. - ? 

Mr.  O’Sullivan.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Anderson.  He  was  in  the  office  the  other  day  and  he  told 
me  as  regards  the  people  employed  by7  him,  that  through  the  summer 
they7  were  employed  by  the  city  and  received  their  wages  every 

week;  they  received  from  $1.50  to  $1.75  a  day7 ;  and  Mr.  - 

said  his  life  was  almost  hounded  out  of  him  by  those  men  who  came 
to  him  now  and  said  they  must  have  work  or  else  they  had  got  to  go 
onto  the  town  for  support,  and  in  order  to  keep  them  off'  the  city7, 
he  had  picked  out  the  poorest  of  the  men,  and  was  giving  them  work 
just  for  that  purpose,  because  they  are  worthy7  parties.  This  is  a 
matter  of  fact ;  it  is  not  a  matter  of  opinion.  Furthermore,  Mr. 

-  said  that  from  time  to  time  operatives  working  with  us  at 

the  Pacific  would  go  to  the  Arlington  mills.  Up  to  the  time  that 
they7  left  us  they  had  been  honest  and  good  pay7.  After  they  had 
gone  up  to  the  Arlington  mills  as  a  rule  those  operatives  got  behind 
hand.  They  say  it  was  a  rule  with  the  operatives  there  to  run 
their  accounts  monthly7,  although  they  received  their  pay  weekly, 
and  then  at  the  end  of  the  mouth  come  in  with  one  week’s  pay  in 
their  pocket  and  want  to  give  part  of  that  week’s  pay  on  account ; 
and  it  had  got  so  bad  that  the  first  of  this  last  January,  he  gave  his 
bookkeeper  orders  to  trust  no  one  who  received  pay  weekly,  be¬ 
cause  he  could  not  get  the  money7  out  of  them.  1  mention  him 
because  you  know  him  perfectly7  well,  and  he  is  a  very7  fair  man ;  he 
didn’t  tell  that  to  be  repeated.  When  I  say7  that  I  say  what  has  been 
stated  to  me  over  and  over  again,  by7  storekeeper  after  storekeeper. 

Mr.  O’Sullivan.  By  men  of  Mr. - ’s  calibre  and  standing? 

Mr.  Anderson.  No.  Well,  we  will  take  Mr.  Shattuck.  He  is 
an  incorruptible  man.  He  will  say  the  very  same  thing.  Mr.  Shat- 


43 


tuck  has  been  down  here  to  say7  it,  and  he  will  say  it  today.  I  am 
simply  talking  to  you  because  you  know  the  names ;  and  it  carries 
more  weight  where  it  is  not  a  matter  of  opinion,  but  where  it  is  the 
name  of  a  person  you  know. 

Q.  (By7  Mr.  Russell.)  You  say  you  argued  for  weekly  pay¬ 
ments  in  order  to  learn  the  opinion  of  the  operatives  ? 

A.  I  said  1  talked  that  side. 

Q.  Now,  is  it  surprising  that  the  operative  should  be  a  little 
cautious  and  a  little  suspicious  in  talking  with  a  man  who  is  talking 
against  his  convictions? 

A.  No,  I  don’t  think  that  would  follow  at  all,  because  in  order 
to  get  at  the  opinion  of  a  person,  it  is  not  every  person  who  can  ex¬ 
press  his  opinion,  and  you  have  to  draw  it  out  by  conversation. 
You  know  that  perfectly  well.  Sometimes  in  talking  of  a  measure 
you  will  get  an  intelligent  opinion  out  of  a  person  which  they  are 
not  able  to  express,  and  it  was  in  order  to  help  them  in  formulating 
an  expression  of  opinion  that  I  talked  with  them. 

Q.  Don’t  you  believe  that  operatives  are  a  little  suspicious  of 
conversation  with  an  office  man  in  regard  to  this  matter? 

A.  Perhaps  Mr.  O’Sullivan  could  answer  that  question. 

Q.  I  ask  you  if  you  don’t  believe  it  is  so? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  don’t  think  there  is  an  operative  that  is  suspicious 
of  me  in  the  least. 

Mr.  O’Sullivan.  I  don’t  believe  they  are. 

Q.  Would  you  blame  him  if  he  was,  when  you  talked  with  him 
and  argued  contrary  to  your  candid  convictions  ? 

A.  I  didn’t  say  I  talked  with  him  or  argued  with  him  against 
my  conviction.  I  said  I  sometimes  talked  in  favor  of  weekly  pay¬ 
ments.  I  believe.,  sir,  that  I  can  get  at  as  considerate,  as  honest, 
as  true  an  opinion  from  the  operatives  as  anyone  here. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  O’Sullivan.)  Well,  if  it  should  appear,  Mr.  An¬ 
derson,  notwithstanding  your  opinion  in  the  matter,  that  it  would 
be  for  the  benefit  of  the  great  majority  of  the  people,  and  if  it 
should  also  appear  that  the  matter  was  practicable — 

A.  The  old  saying  is:  “If  you  put  ifs  enough  in  you  can  move 
the  world.”  It  is  not  for  the  benefit  of  the  majority,  and  it  is  not 
practicable  so  far  as  the  Pacific  mills  are  concerned. 

Q.  That  is  your  opinion? 

A.  No,  sir;  it  is  not  a  matter  of  opinion.  So  far  as  practicabili¬ 
ty  of  carrying  it  out  in  the  Pacific  mills  is  concerned.  I  say  it  cannot 
be  done. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  paymaster,  Mr.  Anderson? 

A.  I  have  been  paymaster  going  on  6  years,  and  before  that  I 
was  an  examiner  of  pay-rolls  at  mills. 

Q.  By7  (Mr.  II.  l3.  Smith.)  One  thing  I  want  to  ask  you  be¬ 
cause  the  committee,  some  of  them  know  you,  and  they  know  you 


44 


bear  this  relation  to  the  operatives,  and  that  they  have  confidence  in 
3*ou.  I  want  to  know  whether  it  is  a  fact  that  witnesses  are  terri¬ 
fied  and  kept  from  appearing  here  by  fear  of  being  discharged. 

A.  There  is  not  a  person  in  the  Pacific  mills  who  is  in  any  ter¬ 
ror  or  has  ever  had  any  threat,  or  basis  of  a  threat,  or  shadow  of  a 
threat,  or  any  intimation  or  information  that  would  keep  him  from 
here  if  he  wished  to  come. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  O’Sullivan.)  Would  you  let  a  petition  go  through 
your  mill? 

A.  No,  sir ;  we  don’t  let  any  petitions  go  through  the  mill. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Sargent.)  Or  a  remonstrance ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.)  Have  }*ou  refused  a  remonstrance? 

A.  I  don’t  know  that  there  had  been  anything  of  the  kind  start¬ 
ed.  We  don’t  allow  book  agents  or  subscription  agents  ;  we  don’t 
let  subscription  papers  of  any  sort  go  into  the  mill ;  we  keep  them 
entirely  out. 

Mr.  Bennett.  You  conveyed  to  me  the  idea  that  a  man  who  re¬ 
ceived  his  pay  once  a  week  was  poor  pay,  and  a  man  who  receives 
his  pay  once  a  month  would  be  better  pay? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  I  want  to  ask  3*011,  in  that  connection,  do  3*ou  think 
that  an  operative,  or,  in  fact,  any  man  not  accustomed  to  handling 
money  in  large  quantities,  could  take  care  of  a  large  sum  of  money 
better  than  a  small  sum,  and  handle  it  more  judiciously  for  his  own 
purpose  ? 

A.  Well,  Mr.  Bennett,  3*011  are  asking  two  or  three  questions  in 
one,  begging  your  pardon. 

Q.  Well,  answer  it  in  3*0111’  own  wa}\ 

A.  So  far  as  the  matter  of  credit  is  concerned  ;  the  operative  that 
is  working  for  us,  and  receiving  pa}*  eveiy  month,  receives  credit 
and  deserves  credit,  the  expectation  being  that  at  the  end  of  the 
month  he  will  come  in  and  pa}*  the  month’s  bills.  The  storekeepers 
know  when  pay  day  comes,  and  the  operative  comes  around  and 
pays  his  bills.  An  operative  during  the  month  goes  and  buys  a  bar¬ 
rel  of  flour,  buys  in  quantities  which  are  larger  than  he  could  buy  if 
he  was  receiving  his  pay  weekl}*,  and  he  has  better  credit  for  the 
reason  that,  at  the  end  of  the  month,  he  will  receive  an  amount 
which  will  be  sufficient  to  liquidate  the  entire  month’s  indebtedness. 
The  first  week  he  may  have  received  credit  on  the  books  of  the 
storekeeper  to  the  amount  of  an  entire  week’s  pay,  and  perhaps  to 
the  amount  of  two  weeks’  pay,  but  it  is  with  the  knowledge  that  at 
the  end  of  the  month  he  will  receive  an  amount  which  will  be  suffi¬ 
cient  to  cover  that  indebtedness,  and  do  something  over  and  above 
for  the  family.  While  under  the  weekly  system,  the  amount  to  be 
received  at  the  end  of  the  week  would  not  be  enough  to  pay.  Cases 


45 


have  been  cited  over  and  over  again,  where  persons  have  left  our 
corporation  and  gone  to  the  Arlington  mills, where  the}'  have  received 
their  pay  weekly.  They  had  come  from  other  corporations,  and  it 
is  said  that  under  the  system  of  weekly  payments  they  cannot  pay 
their  bills.  Somehow  or  other  the  money  went.  You  know  how  it 
is.  Money  in  the  pocket  goes  out  before  you  know  it.  If  they  got 
their  monthly  stipend — 

Q.  It  is  your  opinion  they  would  not  go  round  and  pay  their  bills 
weekly  as  quickly  as  they  go  to  pay  them  once  a  month? 

A.  Well,  sir,  the  storekeepers — the  grocers  and  butchers — they 
tell  me  that  very  many  of  the  Arlington  mill  operatives — I  don’t 
say  all ;  I  am  saying  simply  what  they  told  me — very  many  of  the 
Arlington  mill  people  run  their  accounts  just  exactly  the  same. 

Q.  Well,  if  they  all  paid  weekly  and  the  stores  all  would  com¬ 
mence  the  practice  of  running  weekly  accounts,  wouldn’t  they  get 
in  the  habit  of  paying  their  bills  weekly? 

A.  Well,  there  comes  up  the  very  question  that  I  told  you  of; 
oftentimes  a  man  with  family  wants  to  buy  more  at  a  time  than  his 
weekly  wages  will  pay  for.  What  the  storekeepers  would  do  is  a 
matter  for  them  to  consider. 

Q.  You  look  upon  the  question  of  weekly  payments  as  perfectly 
experimental  ? 

A.  I  do,  so  far  as  the  corporations  are  concerned  that  are  prac¬ 
tising  it.  It  is  an  experimental  thing  as  to  its  feasibility  and  as  to 
its  effects  upon  the  operatives. 

Q.  Of  course  you  are  aware  that  there  are  a  large  portion  of 
the  employes  in  the  Commonwealth  that  are  paid  once  a  week, 
now? 

A.  I  know  there  are  ;  and  I  know,  too,  that  it  is  a  very  singular 
coincidence  that  a  large  proportion  of  the  labor  troubles  that  have 
arisen,  have  arisen  in  the  communities  where  the  pay  is  more 
frequent. 

Q.  Do  }rou  think  it  is  in  consequence  of  weekly  payments? 

A.  I  don’t  know,  but  I  had  an  English  operative  talking  with 
me  the  other  day,  and  he  said  it  was  singular  that  the  two  worst 
features  of  the  English  system  had  been  imported  and  were  trying 
to  be  brought  into  our  manufacturing  communities ;  one  was  the 
system  of  weekly  pay,  and  the  other  was  the  system  of  strikes.  He 
put  them  both  together.  That  was  suggested  to  me  by  an  English 
operative. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  O’Sullivan.)  I  have  talked  with  a  number  who 
have  given  me  a  contrary  opinion. 

A.  Whether  it  is  so  or  not  it  is  not  material.  I  have  had  some 
very  interesting  experiences  with  these  English  people.  They  re¬ 
ceive  their  pay  at  home  evert  week,  and  they  don’t  get  as  much. 
Here  is  simply  one  case  :  We  had  a  man  come  to  us  in  oue  of  our 


46 


departments  of  skilled  labor  ;  it  happened  to  be  a  five-week  payday ; 
that  week  I  was  paying  off  in  gold  ;  when  that  man  got  that  money 
in  hand,  I  don’t  know  of  anything  that  was  a  more  interesting  sight 
than  that  man’s  face.  Ashe  stood  there  I  said  to  the  overseer: 
“He  seems  pleased.”  “Yes,”  he  said,  ‘-I  don’t  believe  he  ever  had 
so  much  money  before.  Did  you,  sir?”  The  operative  replied: 
“My  man,  I  never  had  so  much  money  as  that  of  my  own  in  my 
hand  before.  I  never  had  so  much  m  >ney.  And  that  is  mine. 
Why,  I  tell  you  I  can  pa}’  all  my  bills,  and  there  is  something  there 
that  can  go  into  the  bank.”  That  is  a  sample;  that  is  one  case. 
Over  and  over  again  where  people  have  never  been  paid  other  than 
weekly  ,  they  have  come  to  our  mill,  have  received  their  pay  accord¬ 
ing  to  our  present  system,  and  to-day  own  places  in  the  city  of  Law¬ 
rence,  that  they  themselves  say  the}’  never  could  have  owned  in 
England,  and  never  would  have  had  in  England  or  anywhere  under 
the  weekly  system. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Kussell.)  Is  not  the  reason  that  the  wages  that 
they  earn  in  England  are  not  sufficient  to  leave  them  a  margin  over 
and  above  the  necessary  family  expenses? 

A.  Well,  sir,  if  you  take  the  statistics  of  the  labor  bureau,  you 
will  find  them  to  say  that  the  wages  in  England  and  here  are  not  so 
very  different.  I  am  simply  stating  the  fact ;  I  am  not  arguing 
from  it.  These  are  simple  facts  that  have  come  under  my  observa¬ 
tion.  People  have  said  to  me  little  pleasant  things,  where  I  know 
that  our  own  operatives  have  bought  and  owned  their  places,  and 
this  very  man  that  I  paid  that  money  to,  has  bought  a  place  up  in 
Methuen,  and  he  has  got  it  very  nearly  paid  for.  I  have  talked  with 
him  about  it  from  time  to  time. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Bennett.)  Then,  is  it  the  inference  that  if  they  had 
weekly  payments  your  people  would  not  be  able  to  buy  any  more  homes  ? 

A.  I  don’t  think  they  would. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  know  anything  about  the  city  of  Lynn?  We 
have  operatives  there. 

A.  Oh,  well,  let  Lynn  people  talk  about  Lynn  ;  it  is  not  fair  to 
ask  my  opinion  about  Lynn. 

Q.  1  want  to  say  to  you  that  in  the  city  of  Lynn  the  weekly  pay¬ 
ment  system  has  been  in  practice  twenty  3 ears  or  more.  Don’t 
you  know — you  probably  do  know — that  the  operatives  are  better 
housed,  in  houses  of  their  own,  than  they  are  in  any  other  city  of 
the  Commonwealth? 

A.  I  know  this:  that  the  city  of  Lynn  keeps  stealing  some  of 
our  best  operatives. 

Mr.  Bennett.  We  pay  them  more  money  than  you  do,  and  we 
are  glad  to  do  it. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  II.  D.  Smith.)  In  what  occupations? 

A.  I  don’t  know  what  they  go  into;  they  go  into  some  of  the 


47 


shoe  factories  there.  Some  of  the  smartest  operatives  we  have  had 
have  gone  down  there. 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  am  much  obliged  to  you. 

Mr.  Anderson.  Well,  the)’  have;  I  was  talking  with  a  girl  the 
-  other  day,  who  went  from  Lawrence  to  Lynn,  and  she  said  she  earns 
more  money  down  there.  She  told  me  what  she  was  doing,  but  I 
don’t  remember. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Bennett.)  Did  you  say  that  laborers  in  your  city 
of  Lawrence  don’t  earn  any  more  pay  than  they  do  in  England? 

A.  Did  1  say  so?  No.  He  asked  the  question,  and  I  said  if 
you  took  these  labor  bureau  statistics  you  would  find  them  to  state 
that  there  was  not  a  very  great  difference. 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  was  surprised. 

Mr.  Anderson.  Well,  look  at  the  envelopes  if  you  want  to  see 
what  they  earn. 

Q.  What  do  your  operatives  average  to  earn? 

A.  Well,  an  average  is  not  fair  ;  some  of  our  weavers  earn  more 
than  $1.50  a  day,  and  some  do  not  earn  a  dollar. 

Q.  What  is  the  average? 

A.  Our  weavers  will  average  from  $1.07  to  $1.15  a  day. 

Q.  How  much  do  your  men  earn? 

A.  In  what  department?  Well,  we  have  men  all  the  way  from 
a  dollar  a  day  up  to  $4  and  $5. 

Q.  Well,  a  great  majority  of  your  help  earn  something  like  $1, 
or  $1.25? 

A.  Somewhere  from  a  dollar  to  two  dollars.  But  you  cannot 
average  it. 

Q.  What  is  the  gross  amount? 

A.  Well,  you  have  the  pay-roll  here;  this  happens  to  be  a  five 
weeks’  pay-roll ;  this  pay-roll  was  for  $164,341.26. 

Q.  For  5,500  men. 

A.  It  will  run  between  $30,000  and  $40,000  a  week.  Last 
month’s  pay-roll  was  for  five  weeks,  and  it  was  for  about  $164,000. 
I  have  had  it  up  to  over  $190,000,  but  it  will  run  somewhere  to  between 
less  than  $40,000  and  over  $30,000  a  week.  And  right  here  I  want 
to  say  that  in  talking  with  the  banks,  the  officers  of  the  banks  have 
stated  that  it  is  a  very  serious  matter  so  far  as  they  are  concerned, 
and  they  question  whether  they  would  be  able  to  furnish  the  bills  which 
we  would  require — one  and  two  dollar  bills.  They  could  not  do  it. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  Russell.)  I  see  by  the  pay-roll  for  the  weave  room 
that  the  wages  are  from  $13.72  up  to  $33  for  five  weeks. 

A.  I  am  giving  you  the  average.  It  is  with  great  difficulty  that 
we  get  all  the  small  bills,  the  one  and  two  dollar  bills,  that  we  require 
for  the  pay-roll  now ;  and  when  I  could  not  get  them  for  a  few 
months  I  had  to  use  silver.  It  took  six  hundred  pounds  in  weight 
of  silver  every  month  to  pay  what  I  use,  and  if  we  should  pay  every 
weeO  it  would  take  more  than  that. 


48 


Q.  (By  Mr.  R.  D.  Smith.)  I  want  to  know  whether  there  has 
been  any  effect,  so  far  as  you  have  learned,  from  weekly  payments, 
upon  the  intemperance  of  operatives? 

A.  If  I  should  say  yes,  somebody  else  would  say  no.  I  don’t 
think,  as  a  rule,  that  our  operatives  are  intemperate.  Not  but  what 
they  might  take  something  occasionally*,  but  I  don’t  think  as  a  rule 
that  operatives  are  what  you  may  call  intemperate  ;  no  more  than 
I  think,  as  a  rule,  they  are  immoral.  I  think  operatives  as  a  class 
are  both  temperate  and  moral.  I  am  speaking  simply  of  Lawrence 
now.  It  is  a  fact — I  don’t  draw  any  deductions  from  it,  but  you  take 
the  Arlington  mills,  which  are  doing  so  #  much  in  the  direction  of 
weekly  payments,  and  a  gentleman  competent  to  know  about  the 
matter  quietly  walked  up  around  the  Arlington  mills  the  other  day, 
and  I  am  told,  and  I  have  no  reason  to  doubt  it  from  my  observa¬ 
tion  riding  by,  that  on  the  street  running  from  the  Brown  mills, 
almost  within  a  stone’s  throw,  there  are  nine  shops  that  sell  rum  and 
liquor.  And  almost  within  a  stone’s  throw  of  Goodrich’3  and  the 
entrance  to  the  Arlington  mills, — and  that  is  not  a  very  great  thor¬ 
oughfare, — it  is  what  would  be  called  a  small  street, — there  are  15 
places  that  sell  liquor,  and  that  is  a  fact  which  don’t  obtain,  so  far 
as  I  can  judge,  in  any  other  locality  in  the  city. 

Mr.  O’Sullivan.  I  would  just  qualify  that  a  little  by  saying 
that  the  sudden  upgrowth  of  these  rumshops  is  equally*  as  large,  if  not 
larger,  in  some  other  places.  Even  in  the  district  surrounding  yrour 
corporation,  or  on  the  main  street,  y  ou  can  count  as  many*  in  the 
same  period  of  time  that  they  have  been  built  up  on  Park  street. 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  should  not  question  y*our  statement,  Mr.  O'Sul¬ 
livan,  but  I  didn’t  know  the  rumshops  were  so  prevalent  anywhere 
except  on  Common  street. 

Mr.  O’Sullivan.  I  speak  from  observation  and  an  inspection 
of  the  records  at  the  City  Clerk’s  office,  which  it  was  my  business 
the  other  day  to  look  at. 

Mr.  Anderson.  Well,  they  have  sprung  up  and  congregated 
more  around  the  Arlington  mills  than  in  any  other  portion  of  the 
city.  I  don’t  wish  to  draw  any  inference. 

Mr.  O’Sullivan.  I  will  say  right  here  while  it  is  fresh  in  our 

minds,  in  regard  to  this  man  who  has  been  spoken  of  as  Mr, - — 

and  it  is  a  very  apt  name — this  man,  who,  unfortunately — and  L  wish 
this  to  remain  with  the  committee — has  been  to  the  commission  a 
useless  appendage — this  man’s  books,  if  submitted  to  this  com¬ 
mittee  as  non-partisan  men,  simply  interested  in  getting  at  the  log¬ 
ical  outcome,  are  a  monument  to  the  stupidity  and  ignorance  of  that 
man,  and  of  that  class  of  grocers  and  liquor  dealers,  that  class  that 
sell  liquor  in  connection  with  their  grocery*  shops,  and  that  is  almost 
the  curse  of  Lawrence  and  Lowell,  or  anywhere  else  where  they 
exist — this  man  who  talked  about  what  he  had  suffered  in  losing  his 


49 


bills,  he  ought  to  lose  them.  I  say  that,  Mr.  Anderson,  entirely 
apart  from  anything  }Tou  have  stated. 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  didn’t  go  into  the  matter  personally,  I  simply 
stated  what  he  said  to  me.  Shattuck  Brothers,  who  are  by  no 
means  of  that  class,  but  are  in  every  respect  worthy  of  the  utmost 
credence,  state  the  same  thing,  only  more  so. 

Mr.  O’Sullivan.  Well,  the}’  might ;  they  are  in  a  certain  quarter, 
and  differ  essentially  from  the  rest. 

Mr.  Anderson.  They  have  been  down  here  and  stated  it,  and 
Joseph  Shattuck  said  he  would  come  down  and  tell  the  whole  thing. 

Mr.  O’Sullivan.  I  wish  they  would  come  down.  We  can  put 
in  matter  about  that  which  would  answer  them  fairly  and  fully. 

Mr.  Anderson.  I  have  endeavored  to  give  }rou  simple  facts,  and 
not  opinions. 


A 


